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BessieWallis Warfield

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« on: May 28, 2012, 02:54:06 AM »

Let's begin.

Had they been alive today, they would have hands down far exceeded any dishable material of any royal family. 

Nicholas was dumb.  Seriously, stupendously dumb.  Real nice dude, though.  Very pleasant. 

Alexandra was crazy. Seriously bats#$t crazy.  And when her son was born with hemophelia, her batsh34tiness just imploded.  But Nicholas listened to everything she said.  And that worked out so well.....  Just ask the staff of the Ekaterinberg Moldy Basement Tours.  Or better yet, read her crazy letters to him. 

And then came Rasputin   Yikes 
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2012, 02:20:16 PM »

Im so happy to see this thread!! Jumping
Nicholas wasnt prepared to be tsar, his father died too soon, and poor alix was rejected since the beginning by the russian court and therefore from their people...
First: poor alix was german and she was hated for it(alas almost everybody in the royal family had german roots, but they "forgot it".
Then she had only daughters (because it was her fault, not nicholas....
and finally she had a son, and is sick, that was sadly her genes, but not her fault, if the enviroment was so sour for her, no wonder that she hided in her inner family circle, she tried to come near to the people, but only found rejection, and then those stupid pauline laws, and the pressure on the male heir...
She became depressed and interred herself in religion (hence her crazyness), rasputin used it, and.... we know how it ended.. Sad
Like i said in the other tread, alice, alix und ella, worked too hard to be accepted, and nothing happened, then come lazy asses like waity and charlene, do almost nothing and are people darlings... Thats a mystery for me...
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BessieWallis Warfield

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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2012, 02:23:33 PM »

Im so happy to see this thread!! Jumping
Nicholas wasnt prepared to be tsar, his father died too soon, and poor alix was rejected since the beginning by the russian court and therefore from their people...
First: poor alix was german and she was hated for it(alas almost everybody in the royal family had german roots, but they "forgot it".
Then she had only daughters (because it was her fault, not nicholas....
and finally she had a son, and is sick, that was sadly her genes, but not her fault, if the enviroment was so sour for her, no wonder that she hided in her inner family circle, she tried to come near to the people, but only found rejection, and then those stupid pauline laws, and the pressure on the male heir...
She became depressed and interred herself in religion (hence her crazyness), rasputin used it, and.... we know how it ended.. Sad
Like i said in the other tread, alice, alix und ella, worked too hard to be accepted, and nothing happened, then come lazy asses like waity and charlene, do almost nothing and are people darlings... Thats a mystery for me...

I think Alix came to Russia crazy.  After her mother died, Q. Victoria raised her by proxy.  If there was one thing Victoria really, really liked, it was to mourn.  I recall reading that Victoria would send Alix letters, telling her she wasn't mourning enough.   Nerves
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Schockobaerin

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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2012, 02:42:59 PM »

Im so happy to see this thread!! Jumping
Nicholas wasnt prepared to be tsar, his father died too soon, and poor alix was rejected since the beginning by the russian court and therefore from their people...
First: poor alix was german and she was hated for it(alas almost everybody in the royal family had german roots, but they "forgot it".
Then she had only daughters (because it was her fault, not nicholas....
and finally she had a son, and is sick, that was sadly her genes, but not her fault, if the enviroment was so sour for her, no wonder that she hided in her inner family circle, she tried to come near to the people, but only found rejection, and then those stupid pauline laws, and the pressure on the male heir...
She became depressed and interred herself in religion (hence her crazyness), rasputin used it, and.... we know how it ended.. Sad
Like i said in the other tread, alice, alix und ella, worked too hard to be accepted, and nothing happened, then come lazy asses like waity and charlene, do almost nothing and are people darlings... Thats a mystery for me...

I think Alix came to Russia crazy.  After her mother died, Q. Victoria raised her by proxy.  If there was one thing Victoria really, really liked, it was to mourn.  I recall reading that Victoria would send Alix letters, telling her she wasn't mourning enough.   Nerves

I wrote this in another forum:

Alice was a lot better than selfish queen Victoria, i always thought that Albert would have been a better monarch than victoria ever was, victoria was selfish, and wasnt there for her children or her people, in the potato famine in irland she gave like 1000 pounds, than a prince( i think an ottoman one) gave 10000 pounds and queen victoria, didnt accept the help, because it was a lot fewer than she gave, anyway the prince secretly sponsored the irish anyway... Alice was like her father, she would have been a perfect queen, sadly her daughter poor alix (and she tried a lot) was missunderstood, and was hated without a fault, a big fault to her mother in law and the russian court who didnt like the influence she had on nicholas, and then rasputin came and... what a sad tragedy... Alix and Ella like her mother before worked hard for their subjects, and their subjects were unthankful, the complete opposite of Waity, who does nothing and the public loves her.. That is for me, a mystery

Then, If crazy victoria raised poor alix, no wonder alix had problems, if alix had been raised from her mother, the tale would be another one?? i dont think so, she became a loon because of the pressure in russia, and then alexeis sickness......
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2012, 07:38:31 PM »

History is always written by those with an agenda.

Since the time when kings and emperors ruled over lands so vast and subjects so many they have isolated themselves from their people, for safety reasons and of course for luxury. They lost all common grounds with their people and imo have lost any connection to how their subjects live, what they need and what they truly think and feel.
We often reprimand the current royals, call them lazy or sporting a Marie-Antoniette attitude, however compared to their ancestors all of them work their asses off. The working royal was indeed an invention of QueenMom, never before had a royal ever worked more hands on for their patronages.
I don't think that Alix had brought the Romanov dynasty down nor did her husband's limited intellectual capabilities, those might have been contributory factors but hardly crucial.
The russian people were invected by the new movement, that promised to eliminate hunger and starvation, extreme poverty  and offered better living conditions. And to achieve this the royal family had to go, and as with many radical revolutions killing them would make sure they wouldn't form a counter revolution from abroad.
 
Was Alix mad?
I don't think so, but she had an extremely difficult position in the family. She was very isolated, never got along with her mother-in-law, who however had already established a circle of trusted people in the court, who in terms would spy on Alix and treat her with some contempt. Alix might have been the grand-daughter of QueenV, but she was a german princess from an insignificant grand duchy. (there are a lot of resemblances with Elizabeth of Austria!!!).
When only daughters came along, it was seen as her fault, as a sign that God didn't give her his blessings and as she was very religious this effected her a lot. When finally a son was born, he was very ill, again a sign from the heavens and a potential threat, because other people could feel tempted to overthrow this reigning family. So it had to be kept a secret, and that and not having any chance of recovery would put a lot of strain on any parent.
Watching your child suffer, being utterly helpless and unable to heal or help the child makes a lot of people seek "alternatives" even today. (Go to the leukaemia websides and you'll find tons of parents prepared to bring down the world with a Rasputin, if only there was a slight chance to save their child) If you look at the often ridiculous treatments royal parents agreed to in order to heal their sick child (Wilhelm of Germany was born with a malformed arm, the treatments should be listed under "torture" - NL's Queen Juliana had her very own female version of Rasputin to heal her sick daughter and almost brought down the monarchy) a hypnotic and charismatic siberian healer doesn't sound so farfetched. And he was able to stop the bleeding and calm the child and subsequently the parents.
That he abused his position to influence the souvereign, well again we can find almost as many examples for bad and weird "advisors" as there had been kings.
 
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2012, 08:53:35 PM »

History is always written by those with an agenda.

Since the time when kings and emperors ruled over lands so vast and subjects so many they have isolated themselves from their people, for safety reasons and of course for luxury. They lost all common grounds with their people and imo have lost any connection to how their subjects live, what they need and what they truly think and feel.
We often reprimand the current royals, call them lazy or sporting a Marie-Antoniette attitude, however compared to their ancestors all of them work their asses off. The working royal was indeed an invention of QueenMom, never before had a royal ever worked more hands on for their patronages.
I don't think that Alix had brought the Romanov dynasty down nor did her husband's limited intellectual capabilities, those might have been contributory factors but hardly crucial.
The russian people were invected by the new movement, that promised to eliminate hunger and starvation, extreme poverty  and offered better living conditions. And to achieve this the royal family had to go, and as with many radical revolutions killing them would make sure they wouldn't form a counter revolution from abroad.
 
Was Alix mad?
I don't think so, but she had an extremely difficult position in the family. She was very isolated, never got along with her mother-in-law, who however had already established a circle of trusted people in the court, who in terms would spy on Alix and treat her with some contempt. Alix might have been the grand-daughter of QueenV, but she was a german princess from an insignificant grand duchy. (there are a lot of resemblances with Elizabeth of Austria!!!).
When only daughters came along, it was seen as her fault, as a sign that God didn't give her his blessings and as she was very religious this effected her a lot. When finally a son was born, he was very ill, again a sign from the heavens and a potential threat, because other people could feel tempted to overthrow this reigning family. So it had to be kept a secret, and that and not having any chance of recovery would put a lot of strain on any parent.
Watching your child suffer, being utterly helpless and unable to heal or help the child makes a lot of people seek "alternatives" even today. (Go to the leukaemia websides and you'll find tons of parents prepared to bring down the world with a Rasputin, if only there was a slight chance to save their child) If you look at the often ridiculous treatments royal parents agreed to in order to heal their sick child (Wilhelm of Germany was born with a malformed arm, the treatments should be listed under "torture" - NL's Queen Juliana had her very own female version of Rasputin to heal her sick daughter and almost brought down the monarchy) a hypnotic and charismatic siberian healer doesn't sound so farfetched. And he was able to stop the bleeding and calm the child and subsequently the parents.
That he abused his position to influence the souvereign, well again we can find almost as many examples for bad and weird "advisors" as there had been kings.
 
I agree 100% with you, also i give the dowager empress a lot of fault for mistreating poor alix, because she was "german", she forgot, that her own mother came from "hesse-kassel", so instead to help her DiL, she made her life at the russian court the living hell, the monarchie needed to change, and give up the autocratic power, and stop thinking the czar was like a demigod, i dont know why nicholas kept going to wars, hence it wasnt his fault, all the bad things that happened, like the bloody sunday, he wasnt prepared to be king, he was only 26, and became a throne in crumbles with starving subjects, and there were a lot of corruption back then, they were isolated, and it was so much power for only one person, sadly russians payed a really expensive price, because the soviet union was worser than any tsar they´ve ever had. and dear cousin Willy made a treat with lenin, and  sended him back to russia... That loon megalomaniac destroyed everything his antecessors did, many said that if wilhem father hadnt that throat cancer, he would have been a lot better king, because he was a liberal, and thought that was important what subjects think about their realms, he admired albert, who for me, saved victoria and the english crown to be doomed, It wasnt the queen mother who started to work as a royal, but Edward VI, who learned from his father that is important that people sees his king, no matter what its status was, after Albert died, Victoria secluded herself and people was angry that she didnt her job properly. Sadly Albert like Friedrich III died too young, if Friedrich had lived, no WWI would have happened, Russia in the other side, was doomed because of those stupids czars and their "advisers", that was long before Alix and Rasputin, but they needed a scapegoat, and shy Alix was the easiest target, Alix was so weak and hypochondriac because of Queen V and her mourning upbringing, Alix could have learned a lot from his mum, or from her MiL but Maria made things worser... So i think Alix is the one with fewer fault in this matter... It was the fault of:
1) The lousy czars before nicholas, and nicholas and his advisors
2) Kaiser Friedrich (because he died too soon)
3) Empress Maria (because she helped to spread lies about alix, hence her unpopularity, and well that triggered the revolution!!)
4) Alice (she died too soon and didnt educate her daughter to be a good queen)
5) Queen V, because of her selfishness, she educated poor Alix and made her a loon, and because she spreaded that hideous hämophilia...
6) Alix, because she was weak, and let that bullying happen, her tale reminds me of how poor diana was bullied..
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2012, 09:11:08 PM »

I read that Alexandria had a form of acute shyness, almost an avoidance disorder.  Maybe a social phobia would be a correct way to put it. She coped well when she was within her own circle of friends and family.  But when she was on public display or had to go to official functions she became quite nervous.  Her son's hemophilia didn't help the situation any. The whole family in a way became part of his illness.  Everything had to be arranged around not bruising or injuring him.  Very sad.  Then Rasputin found a new source of adulation and wealthy family to control.  Very horrible.
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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2012, 09:24:00 PM »

Why didnt nicholas change the pauline laws, and made his daughters heirs? Come on! the better Emperor Russia ever had, was a woman (Catherine)
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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2012, 09:40:24 PM »

I agree with everything that has been said about the faults within the intertwined RFs, but couldn't it be said that Russian was a backwards society and that this sudden shift from very backwards to very forwards also didn't help situations? Whilst other Emperors, such as Kaiser Wilhelm and Edward VII, were accepting their roles as constitutional monarchs who had increasingly ceremonial roles in the running of their new democratic kingdoms, whereas Nicholas, and I agree that this is the fault of all the Tsars before him aswell, was SUCH an autocrat that even a simple name change had to be run by him for approval. His Empire, whilst spanning most of the continent, was backwards. Whilst Serfs had been abolished before Nicholas had been born, there was still this class structure in Russian Imperial Society which puts Britain's in the shade. I think the best book to highlight the ills of Russian Imperial Society is The Kreutzer Sonata by Tolstoy (an incredible book if ever you get the chance to read it). Through the eyes of a murderous minor noble, Tolstoy portrays (rightly so) the 'marriage market' which was Russian high society. You couldn't marry out of that society for fear of being ostracized and if you married for love then, heck, you were lucky. Imperial Russian was firmly fixed in the old world of feudalism and princes with palaces that rivalled the Tsars and eating off of gold plates; completely (and in some cases very obviously) void of political democracy and any sort of social eqaulity, very much like the arrogance (and ignorance) which eventually bought down the Bourbon Dynasty of France. The best examples of Nicholas' ignorance of this new emerging world was in 1913 when the RIF celebrated the 300 years of Romanov rule; there were balls and partying and dancing and glorious banquets and lavish food; all for them. There was nothing for the Russian people. And that is, possible, where the Romanovs went terribly wrong; ignoring the social and political changes that were sweeping the nations of their cousins and so, when the old archaic Russian Imperial society met with the new, democratic ideology of Lenin, it ended in such a bad, devastating way.
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« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2012, 10:08:25 PM »

Alix had a lot of marks against her.

She and Nicky became engaged just as it became apparent that his father was very ill. Nicky went back to Russia alone but soon called Alix to his side when he realized he was only weeks or even days away from becoming the new czar.  An absolutely terrifying thought for a young man with no training.  Inexplicably, czar Alexander had decided to wait until Nicky was 30 before teaching him the ropes.  Nicky was 26 when his father died and completely unprepared.

So, Alix came to him (and Russia) just as the Czar was dieing.  The people saw this as a bad omen.  A bad luck charm, so to speak. 

And Alix was also terribly shy.  Did not smile much.  Part of this was from her tragic childhood.  Her early nickname had been 'Sunny'.  But after the death of two siblings and her mother, she became much more reserved.  But the people saw her as haughty.  Unfriendly.  Cold.  Distant.  They thought she didn't like them or Russia, so they didn't like her.

And then there was her Russian.  It was spoken with a thick German accent.  She never mastered it completely.  And it reminded people that she was German.  Not truly Russian. 

And then her 5 consecutive pregnancies.  She was always in isolation.  Either confined, about to give birth; or recovering from a birth.  So she was mostly absent from court for the first several years and didn't get a chance to build friendships and form alliances.  So people judged her based on what they saw from afar.

And then her son became ill.  And she did lose all perspective and drive her health and the monarchy into the ground in a desperate attempt to save his birthright.
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« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2012, 10:44:13 PM »

If they had survived then the daughters would have married into European Royal Families ... I wonder who? I read once that Olga was considered as a bride for Prince of Wales (edward viii) - might have been quite a different world. of course some of the girls will have carried the haemophilia gene and passed it to 50% of their sons..
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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2012, 11:05:30 PM »

Olga met Crown Price Carol of Romania in 1914 during a family get together.  She did not like him, and that was the end of it. 

It is said that Lord Mountbatten had a pic of Marie by his bedside until he died. 

That is all I have ever heard.
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BessieWallis Warfield

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« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2012, 11:38:58 PM »

I am of the opinion that Alexandra would not have allowed them to marry ultimately.  Or she may have allowed Olga, whom she fought with.  She certainly would have kept one or two home.  The four were her caretakers, and from what I have read the entire atmosphere of the house revolved around Alexandra's moods.

Nobody outside the close family circle knew Alexei had hemophelia - and I don't think many would have known how the gene was carried.  Even if geneticist of the day knew it, royal families were not known to surround themselves with the best and the brightest.  So I don't know how knowledge, if any, of Alexei's hemophelia would have affected his sister's marriage prospects. 

Much as I love OTMA (who doesn't?) I am of the opinion that they are so idolized today because they died at the apex of their lives - beautiful young women who had their whole lives in front of them.  Not sure how those four lives would have turned out.  From 1905 on, the family virtually lived in isolation, and they had little contact with outsiders. Their entire lives revolved round their super religious mother and their very sick brother.  Either they would have welcomed the escape, realized after they left that it was completely oppressive, or have longed to return to the only life they knew. 

In 1914 there were some marriage prospects, but not sure what would have happened after the war.  There is still all sorts of speculation about whether Rasputin touched Alexandra or the daughters.  While I don't think he did, I'm sure the rumors would have been literally flying throughout Europe, making the four less than pure. 

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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2012, 11:50:40 PM »

I am of the opinion that Alexandra would not have allowed them to marry ultimately.  Or she may have allowed Olga, whom she fought with.  She certainly would have kept one or two home.  The four were her caretakers, and from what I have read the entire atmosphere of the house revolved around Alexandra's moods.

Nobody outside the close family circle knew Alexei had hemophelia - and I don't think many would have known how the gene was carried.  Even if geneticist of the day knew it, royal families were not known to surround themselves with the best and the brightest.  So I don't know how knowledge, if any, of Alexei's hemophelia would have affected his sister's marriage prospects. 

Much as I love OTMA (who doesn't?) I am of the opinion that they are so idolized today because they died at the apex of their lives - beautiful young women who had their whole lives in front of them.  Not sure how those four lives would have turned out.  From 1905 on, the family virtually lived in isolation, and they had little contact with outsiders. Their entire lives revolved round their super religious mother and their very sick brother.  Either they would have welcomed the escape, realized after they left that it was completely oppressive, or have longed to return to the only life they knew. 

In 1914 there were some marriage prospects, but not sure what would have happened after the war.  There is still all sorts of speculation about whether Rasputin touched Alexandra or the daughters.  While I don't think he did, I'm sure the rumors would have been literally flying throughout Europe, making the four less than pure. 



Rasputin used to see the daughters in their bed clothes to tuck them in at night or help them with their prayers.  Alexandra was ok with it. She thought he was far to holy to have any indecent thoughts or intentions.  Someone in the household told Nicholas and it stopped.   I have also read that Rasputin bragged to friends and acquaintances about him and Alexandra during drunken parties.  It was all untrue of course.   That is the extent of my knowledge about any such 'intimacy' between him and the royal family. 
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BessieWallis Warfield

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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2012, 12:16:29 AM »

I am of the opinion that Alexandra would not have allowed them to marry ultimately.  Or she may have allowed Olga, whom she fought with.  She certainly would have kept one or two home.  The four were her caretakers, and from what I have read the entire atmosphere of the house revolved around Alexandra's moods.

Nobody outside the close family circle knew Alexei had hemophelia - and I don't think many would have known how the gene was carried.  Even if geneticist of the day knew it, royal families were not known to surround themselves with the best and the brightest.  So I don't know how knowledge, if any, of Alexei's hemophelia would have affected his sister's marriage prospects. 

Much as I love OTMA (who doesn't?) I am of the opinion that they are so idolized today because they died at the apex of their lives - beautiful young women who had their whole lives in front of them.  Not sure how those four lives would have turned out.  From 1905 on, the family virtually lived in isolation, and they had little contact with outsiders. Their entire lives revolved round their super religious mother and their very sick brother.  Either they would have welcomed the escape, realized after they left that it was completely oppressive, or have longed to return to the only life they knew. 

In 1914 there were some marriage prospects, but not sure what would have happened after the war.  There is still all sorts of speculation about whether Rasputin touched Alexandra or the daughters.  While I don't think he did, I'm sure the rumors would have been literally flying throughout Europe, making the four less than pure. 



Rasputin used to see the daughters in their bed clothes to tuck them in at night or help them with their prayers.  Alexandra was ok with it. She thought he was far to holy to have any indecent thoughts or intentions.  Someone in the household told Nicholas and it stopped.   I have also read that Rasputin bragged to friends and acquaintances about him and Alexandra during drunken parties.  It was all untrue of course.   That is the extent of my knowledge about any such 'intimacy' between him and the royal family. 

Agreed, I don't think there was any activity between them.  But there were all kinds of rumors flying around Russia about him, and all kinds of speculation, and it would have reached prospective bridegrooms elsewhere, even as malicious gossip.
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