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Author Topic: Body of Richard III found  (Read 57674 times)
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SavageGrace

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« Reply #285 on: March 03, 2015, 05:01:23 PM »

.... remind me to be cremated.
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« Reply #286 on: March 03, 2015, 05:02:35 PM »

That's a lovely idea, Lady Alice!
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« Reply #287 on: March 03, 2015, 07:58:21 PM »

One could come up with a great romantic novel about his " true love " or something.  Wink

Or, unromanticlly, just a coincidence?
She was buried about 100 years earlier, so it seems rather unlikely they were star crossed lovers... Halo
When I heard that there were several burials of females, all very carefully done and articulated (as opposed to Richards, whose burial shows little reverence to his status) I wondered if that was indeed a nunnery, with perhaps the unknown skeleton, who showed signs of very good and diverse nutrition and therefore likely great wealth, the head abbess or perhaps a rich widow who moved into the nunnery at old age (think of a medieval nursing home) or a loved but mentally sick relative (again think nursing). But surely there would be documents showing that the church was used as a convent or as a resting place for a nearby nunnery. And nothing of that sort is known.
So it seems a mystery...
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« Reply #288 on: March 04, 2015, 01:01:59 AM »

They seemed to have buried him, originally, in a female's tomb. Perhaps as another form of humiliation.
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« Reply #289 on: March 04, 2015, 06:41:39 AM »

In 1496 Henry VII supposedly paid £10 for a tomb of coloured marble and an alabaster effigy to be placed over Richard's grave, together with a Latin inscription. In the 1530's, during the Reformation this tomb was presumably wrecked, together with the rest of the monastery and the church. There was an aural legend for a long time that Richard's bones were thrown into the River Soar at that time.

I'm just wondering whether, instead, somebody rescued his skeleton (which might have been just lying in the open air) and just dug a quick small grave, where there were previous graves and just dumped the body in there.
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« Reply #290 on: March 04, 2015, 07:31:58 PM »

One of my BFF's and her mom are steadfast Ricardians; her mom actually won a lottery ticket to the reinterment ceremony. Yes
My friend is going as well--she can't attend the ceremony, of course, but will be in Leicester to see part of the funeral procession, pay respects at his lying in state, etc. They'll both be present at a performance of the Middleham Requiem after the reinterment and had to supply personal info/refs for the security checklist because the Duke of Gloucester will be there...
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« Reply #291 on: March 04, 2015, 07:52:43 PM »

They seemed to have buried him, originally, in a female's tomb. Perhaps as another form of humiliation.
Don't know about that, it seems rather that they didn't bother to dig out a big grave or put him in a lead coffin inside a stone sarcophagus like the females that were interred there. It looks like it was quick work either because they cared little or because they had to be quick and couldn't afford a more elaborate burial. However the fact that he was buried in sacred ground speaks for someone who did give the status of a king some consideration.
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« Reply #292 on: March 06, 2015, 11:23:01 PM »

One of my BFF's and her mom are steadfast Ricardians; her mom actually won a lottery ticket to the reinterment ceremony. Yes
My friend is going as well--she can't attend the ceremony, of course, but will be in Leicester to see part of the funeral procession, pay respects at his lying in state, etc. They'll both be present at a performance of the Middleham Requiem after the reinterment and had to supply personal info/refs for the security checklist because the Duke of Gloucester will be there...
LUCKY Lady! The history buff in me is more excited about this royal event than any upcoming wedding, birth etc...
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« Reply #293 on: March 07, 2015, 12:37:29 AM »

I know---it's soooooooo cool! My friend and her Mom are extremely thrilled to be able to be able to witness this...and I can't wait to hear the details!
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« Reply #294 on: March 07, 2015, 12:56:49 AM »

Latin Mass to be offered to mark reinterment of Richard III
A Requiem Mass in the traditional Latin form will be offered at a Lancashire church on the same day the king's remains are reinterred in Leicester


A Requiem Mass in the traditional Latin form is to be offered at a Catholic church in Lancashire to mark the reinterment of King Richard III, which will take place on the same day at Leicester’s Anglican cathedral.

The mortal remains of Richard III, who died in the Battle of Bosworth in 1485, before the Reformation, will be reinterred in the cathedral on March 26, in the presence of the Archbishop of Canterbury and an invited congregation.

The Requiem Mass for the repose of Richard III’s soul will be held on the same day St Catherine’s Church, in Leyland, Lancashire, at 7.30pm. It will be a Sung High Latin Mass with singers from the Laeta Cantoribus Choir, “in the style and manner of (Richard III’s) day”.

“The idea is that it will be closer to what he might have experienced in his own lifetime, as a pre-reformation Catholic,” said parish priest Fr Simon Henry.

After the service, refreshments will be served, also in keeping with what King Richard might have expected in his lifetime.

“The food afterwards will make at least a nod in the direction of the 15th century, or at least to his Yorkshire connections,” said Fr Henry. “Though wild boar sausages are a little difficult to come by!”

The skeleton of Richard III was found under a car park in Leicester in 2012. In the days before the reinterment service at Leicester Cathedral, the coffin will be taken to Leicester University and Bosworth Field, where the king was was killed in battle.

Following the Leicester Cathedral service, Richard III’s body will lie “in repose” for three days before being reinterred.

Cardinal Vincent Nichols of Westminster will be part of the week-long run of events to mark the reinterment.

The cardinal will preach at a service of compline on the day the king’s remains are received into the cathedral and will celebrate a Requiem Mass the next day at a nearby Catholic parish.

Dominican friars will also sing vespers at the cathedral in the run-up to the reinterment and Fr David Rocks OP, parish priest, will preach at a lunchtime Eucharist.

http://www.catholicherald...interment-of-richard-iii/
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« Reply #295 on: March 07, 2015, 01:00:36 AM »

The most bizarre royal burial Britain's ever seen: Troops lining the streets and 21-gun salutes... for a king who died more than 500 years ago

http://www.dailymail.co.u...g-died-500-years-ago.html

Normally, you know where you are with a British royal event. There’s a certain predictability to our pomp and ceremony, a protocol for everything.

Whether the occasion is a wedding, a christening or a funeral, you can guarantee that there will be crowds, gun salutes, families schlepping down from Sunderland to camp out in The Mall and BBC commentators coming up with 36 different ways of saying, ‘Here comes a horse.’

But this one – the reburial of King Richard III, whose remains were famously found in a car park in Leicester in 2012 – is different. It may be a king’s funeral but it’s a king’s funeral more than half a millennium after the event. It is also the burial of a royal still described by the reigning family on their website as a ‘usurper’; a man who still divides opinion.

Richard, the last king of England from the House of York, was slain at the Battle of Bosworth Field in Leicestershire in 1485, the last big battle in the Wars of the Roses. He was buried without pomp and his tomb is thought to have been razed in the Reformation, his remains only turning up five centuries later.

His reputation as a deformed schemer was sealed in Shakespeare’s play Richard III. But was he really a ruthless murderer (he’s thought to have done away with his nephews Edward V, 12, and his nine-year-old brother Richard, the Princes in the Tower, to secure the throne for himself) or just misunderstood? That isn’t settled yet.

All in all, when it comes to laying a legend to rest we are in uncharted waters. And in Leicester, to boot – territory of the House of Lancaster. The saga of how we got here, from the car park to a courtroom tussle over who should ‘own’ Richard’s bones – York or Leicester – has all been a bit bonkers, let’s face it.

‘It is. You couldn’t make it up,’ says veteran newscaster Jon Snow, who’ll head the coverage of the reburial for Channel 4 – acres of it – starting with the funeral procession on 22 March and the reinterment service four days later.

‘I mean, this is a king who was dug up in a car park, under the letter R for “Reserved parking”. It’s a Catholic king being buried in an Anglican cathedral [though it was originally a Catholic cathedral, as all English churches were before the Reformation]. Now there’ll be a procession in Leicester, with troops and crowds on the streets. It’s very eccentrically English. I’m not sure it could happen anywhere else.’

Richard will begin his final journey when his skeleton, in a lead-lined coffin made of English oak, is taken by hearse from Leicester University to the cathedral, stopping off at places that would have played a part in his life and death.

The cortege will visit Fenn Lane Farm, the spot closest to where Richard is thought to have been killed, and Dadlington, where fallen soldiers from the Battle of Bosworth are buried. There’ll be a 21-gun salute at the Bosworth Battlefield Heritage Centre and the hearse will be joined by a mounted guard of honour. At Bow Bridge, where it’s believed Richard rode out to battle, 200 schoolchildren will display the medieval-style pennants they’ve designed.

Following a short service at Leicester’s oldest church, St Nicholas, the coffin will be shrouded in a pall embroidered with scenes of his life, death and discovery by renowned artist Jacquie Binns, and mounted on a brake drawn by four horses.

A handover will take place at the cathedral, where the coffin will go on display ahead of the reinterment service on 26 March, when it’s laid in a vault under the Swaledale tombstone designed by van Heyningen and Haward Architects, which bears Richard’s motto ‘Loyaulte me lie’, or ‘Loyalty binds me’. The whole shebang is said to be costing £2.5 million.

What tone will the coverage take though? It’s a funeral, obviously, but also a global event with giant screens and all the attendant hoop-la. Will the Channel 4 coverage reflect this commercial side, or be reverential? ‘Well, it’s impossible to avoid the light side yet we don’t get to bury an English king often, do we?’ says Snow. ‘To be honest, it’s not like anything I’ve worked on before – there is no precedent. I don’t imagine we’ll see anything like it again, either.’

Hold on though. This is a royal funeral. Why is Channel 4 holding court? ‘Ah well, there’s an interesting story there,’ says Snow. ‘When permission was sought to dig up the car park, the local authority had the wit to grant it on condition a TV company was involved, just in case they did find the bones, because it would be good for Leicester. The BBC turned it down. Channel 4 wanted it.’

Ouch! Heads should roll at the BBC for that one, given how much media coverage the discovery has had. Obviously, to rub salt into the wounds, Channel 4, having secured rights to broadcast the funeral, is going to town, with correspondents dotted along the route, and the studio crammed full of historians. When the idea was mooted that Snow should front it, though, he was baffled.

‘I’m the only Snow who isn’t a historian,’ he says, with reference to the confusion between him, his cousin Peter Snow and Peter’s son Dan. Then he wondered if he could summon up enough enthusiasm for the subject. ‘But I have to say I got very interested. To see the skeleton in the hole, [as the excavation, televised in the Channel 4 documentary Richard III: The King In The Car Park, revealed] with that extraordinary bent spine, it’s fascinating.’

In fact, the discovery of the skeleton put to bed the question over quite how hunchbacked the king was. After his death, Tudor writers smeared him as a deformed man with a limp and a withered arm. The reality, it seems, is not so extreme – he had scoliosis, a curvature of the spine, but in armour he would likely have looked quite normal.

Incredibly, Snow says that he actually might be related to ‘the guy they dug up’, something he’ll be discussing on air. Pardon? ‘It’s true. I haven’t been DNA tested but I’ve found there’s some family tree history there. We knew there was a possible family link to John of Gaunt – and he was Richard III’s great-uncle. The genealogists haven’t quite finished but there is enough to prove a link. All will be revealed...’ Blimey.

It sounds as if there’ll be no end of actual experts on hand to discuss Richard III. Does Snow have a view on whether he was a sinner or a saint? ‘I think he was probably a very bad man, but in those days nobody ever got to power unless they’d killed somebody.’

The reburial has been planned with military precision and consultant Nick Vaughan-Barratt – whose previous roles have included overseeing Children In Need – is in charge of co-ordinating the coverage. ‘In terms of scale, it’s up there with the big extravaganzas,’ he confirms. ‘There’ll be about 30 TV cameras, miles of cable and 100 or so technical and production staff for Channel 4 alone. Film crews will come from all over the world too. There will be enough technical vehicles to fill the car park Richard was found in three times over.’

It is the final chapter in one of the most extraordinary sagas in our history, or, as Snow puts it ‘the culmination of one of the greatest historical mysteries ever’. And it’s one that was driven not by royalty or the great and good. Hence the feeling at Channel 4 that this is very much the people’s funeral. There will be dignitaries present – the Archbishop of Canterbury will be in attendance, and senior royals (Sophie, Countess of Wessex will be there as will the Duke of Gloucester, who holds the same title as Richard did before he became king).

The undisputed unofficial chief mourner, however, will be writer and amateur historian Philippa Langley – a woman once accused of being obsessed with the dead king. It was she who spearheaded the search for Richard’s remains after becoming fascinated with him while researching a book. Many thought she was mad when she stood in a car park and said she felt she was standing on Richard’s grave – but she was proved right.

As we go to press, Philippa isn’t sure what part she will play in the funeral, if any, but she says she has no desire to be in the front row holding a rose. ‘It’s not about me,’ she insists. ‘I don’t know what I’ll feel on the day, but I expect it will be a sense of relief. A great wrong – that he wasn’t given a king’s burial – will have been put right.’ There must be a sense of vindication too for Philippa and others in the Richard III Society. ‘Yes there is. A lot of hard work went in to getting us this far. From the start, all we wanted to do was discover what had happened to him and give him a proper burial – one fit for a king,’ she says.

Since the discovery the country has gone a little bit Richard III crazy, with a raft of books and documentaries seeking to shed light on his little-known life. History has effectively been rewritten.

But with the revelations came controversy. The first row centred on what should happen to the late king’s remains. Both the cities of York – where, as a member of the House of York, Richard III was from – and Leicester, where he died, but traditionally a city associated with the House of Lancaster, laid claim to his remains, and the modern-day War of the Roses ended up in court. One of the church leaders involved even received threats, and police were called. Passions were clearly running high.

In some quarters they still are. The sight of Richard III being laid to rest in Leicester Cathedral will not please everyone, although Jon Snow thinks the right decision was made. ‘I think having him in their cathedral will mean more to Leicester than it would do to York. They need someone like that. They haven’t got as much to shout about as York has.’

Philippa admits to a little gripe herself. The specially constructed tomb in Leicester Cathedral is part of an overhaul of the building – but is very modern. Some might say that is apt, given the circumstances (not to mention that Richard’s remains were identified using thoroughly modern methods such as carbon dating). She, however, would prefer somewhere ‘a little more traditional’ where she could go and pay her respects. ‘But I do feel that there will be a great sense of closure once it is over, that he has been laid to rest in a fitting way.’

Will the chapter be closed for her – and other Richard III buffs – too? Of course not. ‘Oh no, in many ways the story is just beginning,’ she says. ‘We know how he died now. But there is still so much to uncover about how he lived. And I do think there is a film to be made about his life, one day.’

It seems this is one extraordinary story that will run and run. 

Richard III: The Burial Of A King, Sunday 22 March, 5.30pm, Channel 4. The main service will be live on Channel 4 on Thursday 26 March from 10am.
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Princess BlueEyes

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« Reply #296 on: March 07, 2015, 02:15:47 AM »

One could come up with a great romantic novel about his " true love " or something.  Wink

Or, unromanticlly, just a coincidence?
She was buried about 100 years earlier, so it seems rather unlikely they were star crossed lovers... Halo
When I heard that there were several burials of females, all very carefully done and articulated (as opposed to Richards, whose burial shows little reverence to his status) I wondered if that was indeed a nunnery, with perhaps the unknown skeleton, who showed signs of very good and diverse nutrition and therefore likely great wealth, the head abbess or perhaps a rich widow who moved into the nunnery at old age (think of a medieval nursing home) or a loved but mentally sick relative (again think nursing). But surely there would be documents showing that the church was used as a convent or as a resting place for a nearby nunnery. And nothing of that sort is known.
So it seems a mystery...

when I watched the documentary, they said that Richard's body was taken to Greyfriars Church because of the way it had been treated after the battle. It appears that some wanted to protect his body from any kind of further desecration (the body had humiliation wounds, the feet were missing, and it had been publicly displayed naked in Leicester). Therefore, the burial would have been performed swiftly and most likely in secret. From the layout of the excavation site, they made the educated guess that he was buried behind the altar.
Due to the circumstances of his enemies seeking the body, he received a proper, but minimal, hasty burial. They know he received proper rites because the church was considered to be on consecrated ground and without certain rites, Richard would not have been buried there. They concluded the burial was hasty for several reasons (1) the position of the body implied the grave was too short - the head was "leaning forward" and (2) the position of the hands and arms implied they may have still been tied together, (3) there was no indication of a burial cloth or coffin.
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« Reply #297 on: March 07, 2015, 02:52:39 AM »

One could come up with a great romantic novel about his " true love " or something.  Wink

Or, unromanticlly, just a coincidence?
She was buried about 100 years earlier, so it seems rather unlikely they were star crossed lovers... Halo
When I heard that there were several burials of females, all very carefully done and articulated (as opposed to Richards, whose burial shows little reverence to his status) I wondered if that was indeed a nunnery, with perhaps the unknown skeleton, who showed signs of very good and diverse nutrition and therefore likely great wealth, the head abbess or perhaps a rich widow who moved into the nunnery at old age (think of a medieval nursing home) or a loved but mentally sick relative (again think nursing). But surely there would be documents showing that the church was used as a convent or as a resting place for a nearby nunnery. And nothing of that sort is known.
So it seems a mystery...

when I watched the documentary, they said that Richard's body was taken to Greyfriars Church because of the way it had been treated after the battle. It appears that some wanted to protect his body from any kind of further desecration (the body had humiliation wounds, the feet were missing, and it had been publicly displayed naked in Leicester). Therefore, the burial would have been performed swiftly and most likely in secret. From the layout of the excavation site, they made the educated guess that he was buried behind the altar.
Due to the circumstances of his enemies seeking the body, he received a proper, but minimal, hasty burial. They know he received proper rites because the church was considered to be on consecrated ground and without certain rites, Richard would not have been buried there. They concluded the burial was hasty for several reasons (1) the position of the body implied the grave was too short - the head was "leaning forward" and (2) the position of the hands and arms implied they may have still been tied together, (3) there was no indication of a burial cloth or coffin.

I think it is believed that he lost his feet during the building of an outhouse in the Victorian era.  I read too that being buried behind the altar was a mark of some respect (the body of the woman found also bears that out, as by her diet she was a woman of some means), but that seems to have been the only measure of respect he was given after death, sadly.
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« Reply #298 on: March 22, 2015, 04:08:30 PM »

Reburial of Richard III: http://royaldish.com/index.php?topic=14598.0

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« Reply #299 on: February 21, 2017, 02:24:51 AM »

Quote
Edward was born on 28 April 1442. No contemporary evidence refers to him as being born prematurely. Accordingly, counting back nine months from birth would date his conception to late July 1441. A Channel 4 television documentary in 2004 examined records in the archives of Rouen Cathedral that indicated that from 14 July to 21 August 1441 Richard, Duke of York, was away on campaign at Pontoise, several days' march from Rouen (where Cecily of York was based)

The programme also drew attention to the fact that the christening celebration of Edmund, Earl of Rutland, the second son of Richard and Cecily, was a lavish affair at the cathedral, whereas the christening of Edward, the firstborn, was low key, and in a side chapel.

Let's see if I understood everything about Edward IV's legitimacy: He was born on 28 April 1442 on Thursday.

I used http://www.calculator.net...onception-calculator.html and these are the results:

Most probable conception date: Jul 31, 1441 - Aug 4, 1441
Most probable sexual intercourse date that lead to the pregnancy: Jul 28, 1441 - Aug 4, 1441

Possible conception date: Jul 30, 1441 - Aug 9, 1441
Possible sexual intercourse date that led to the pregnancy: Jul 25, 1441 - Aug 9, 1441

Since Richard of York was away during 14 July to 21 August 1441 on campaign at Pontoise, it is definetly impossible Richard and Cecily conceived Edward, so Cecily had an affair with this Norman archer.

But the question is - Did Richard knew he wasn't Edward's legitimate father, and passed the baby as his just so he could not ruin Cecily's reputation? Or Richard thought he was Edward's father and Cecily took advantage of this and passed the baby as his? (Although Richard couldn't had believed her due to him being away) Either way, Edward IV still had a claim to the throne through his mother's side - albeit not a strong one.
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