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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2012, 09:06:12 PM »

Miss Marple I thought the same thing at first...that Caroline should have waited.

But she met the man of her dreams(in 1983) and she was desperate to have children. If she had waited TWELVE LONG YEARS for the Vatican to rule on her annulment who knows if she would have had to abandon her dreams for a family? In retrospect, I have to believe she went with her heart and made the decision that was right for her. Nobody knows what went on between Caroline and her confessor, much less Caroline and her God.

Just because a person is a practicing Catholic doesn't mean they are perfect. That's why they call it PRACTICING. I think it' s unfair to expect Caroline to be a perfect Catholic. Her parents certainly were not...who is?? As far as I know, Caroline has never claimed to be a "devout Catholic".

She is probably just like me and millions of others members of the Church...try, fail, get back up and try again.  Sad

The reason it takes so long to get an annulment is because the Church takes the marriage very seriously. When two baptized people get married it is no longer simply a civil contract...it is elevated to a sacrament.

There are very definite abuses in the annulment process, just as there are in everything. Sometimes I think it's unfair because the more prominent, wealthy Catholics tend to get their cases heard quickly and in their favor.

Reportedly the current pontiff(Benedict XVI) has started cracking down on the number of annulments the Church grants.
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Miss Marple

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« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2012, 09:37:49 PM »

Miss Marple I thought the same thing at first...that Caroline should have waited.

But she met the man of her dreams(in 1983) and she was desperate to have children. If she had waited TWELVE LONG YEARS for the Vatican to rule on her annulment who knows if she would have had to abandon her dreams for a family? In retrospect, I have to believe she went with her heart and made the decision that was right for her. Nobody knows what went on between Caroline and her confessor, much less Caroline and her God.

Just because a person is a practicing Catholic doesn't mean they are perfect. That's why they call it PRACTICING. I think it' s unfair to expect Caroline to be a perfect Catholic. Her parents certainly were not...who is?? As far as I know, Caroline has never claimed to be a "devout Catholic".

She is probably just like me and millions of others members of the Church...try, fail, get back up and try again.  Sad

The reason it takes so long to get an annulment is because the Church takes the marriage very seriously. When two baptized people get married it is no longer simply a civil contract...it is elevated to a sacrament.

There are very definite abuses in the annulment process, just as there are in everything. Sometimes I think it's unfair because the more prominent, wealthy Catholics tend to get their cases heard quickly and in their favor.

Reportedly the current pontiff(Benedict XVI) has started cracking down on the number of annulments the Church grants.

You are certainly right there. I think Caroline was lacking a lot of common sense with her first wedding and I think it was more important to her father that the annulment went through than to her. If she had thought about that step a bit longer, everything would have been way better when she met Stefano.

Stefano and she were a really nice couple, it is very tragic that he died so young. After Stefono it went downhill fast IMO. All she gained from EA was a lot of bad press reports (and a nice little daughter).

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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2012, 09:44:07 PM »

Caroline was a very foolish, headstrong young woman. I think she was "in lust" with Junot and wanted to stick it to her mother, because Grace reportedly forbid her to mess up the family's image by shacking up with him outside of wedlock.(Hard to believe with the way the Grimaldi's carry on today isn't it??  Sad Cool)

I read somewhere that Junot had placed a bet with his buddies that he could "get" Princess Caroline. So the whole marriage was a sham from the beginning. Neither of them were in it for the right reasons. In this case, I think the Vatican ruled correctly by annulling it, and I really don't understand why it took so long. The "marriage" lasted less than 24 mos!  Shocked

I think her own disastrous experience when she was young is the reason Caroline lets her children do their thing and apparently does not interfere with their romantic relationships. In this area at least she has learned her lesson, and does not want the past to repeat itself.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 11:14:58 PM by KittyHeaven » Logged
Miss Marple

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« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2012, 10:39:30 PM »

Caroline was a very foolish, headstrong young woman. I think she was "in lust" with Junot and wanted to stick it to her mother, because Grace reportedly forbid her to mess up the family's image by shacking up with him outside of wedlock.(Hard to believe with the way the Grimaldi's carry on today isn't it??  Sad Cool)

I read somewhere that Junot had placed a bet with his buddies that he could "get" Princess Caroline. So the whole marriage was a sham from the beginning. Neither of them were in it for the right reasons. In this case, I think the Vatican ruled correctly by annulling it, and I really don't understand why it took so long. The "marriage" lasted less than 24 mos!  Shocked

I think her own disastrous experience when she was young is the reason Caroline let's her children do their thing and apparently does not interfere with their romantic relationships. In this area at least she has learned her lesson, and does not want the past to repeat itself.

Hello, as far as I know - annulments always take forever, I think the church wants to make sure that you don't see this as "easy option out". I also heard about the bet which is so ridiculous.

You might be right about Caroline's motives but then all the moral standards have changed significantly. In 1990 I worked in a hotel in a small village and we only rented double rooms to married people. That was the bosses order, finish. Today you would find that hillarious or you could even be sued for discrimination or something like that. I don't live in France or Monaco but our area is Catholic countryside - back then sometimes engaged people built a house, the fiancé moved in and the wife followed the night after the wedding - it was common here and there would have been big talk about babies being born out of wedlock, etc. etc. All this has changed, so Caroline can be more relaxed than Grace.

Then again with her own rather unfortunate love life - would she advice her children to do better? It is strange, all the Grimaldi children have nine children together (!) and none of the children has been born during a legal marriage.
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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2012, 11:12:14 PM »

Miss Marple...the Casiraghi children were all born during a civilly legal marriage...but not a Church sanctified one.  Sad Same for Stephanie's kid's. I don't think she has ever even publically named Camille's father(she wasn't even married in a civil union at the time of Camille's birth. Stephanie just doesn't care and has never pretended otherwise)

It's all so bizarre and rather sad isn't it?

What a funny story about the village where you work...!!  
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swanlake

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« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2012, 11:45:39 PM »

Miss Marple...the Casiraghi children were all born during a civilly legal marriage...but not a Church sanctified one.  Sad Same for Stephanie's kid's. I don't think she has ever even publically named Camille's father(she wasn't even married in a civil union at the time of Camille's birth. Stephanie just doesn't care and has never pretended otherwise)  It's all so bizarre and rather sad isn't it?  

Princess Caroline said in a Barbara Walters interview (on youtube) that she married just "to get out of her parent's house".  She said that her first marriage was" her way of becomming independent, it was as simple as that."  Lizanne Levine, Princess Grace's sister said in an interview that Caroline was completely "snowed" by Junot's charm.  

All of Caroline's children were born after a civil marriage.  Her only Catholic marrige in a church was to Phlippe Junot (1978 to 1980) and was annuled after Stephano died.  In 1992, the Roman Catholic Church granted the Caroline a canonical annulment.  Her three children were recognized by her church as born in a Catholic church-blessed marriage, blessed after Stephano died. (Her marrige to Stephano 1983 to 1990).  

I had never heard of that happening before but Pope John Paul II seemed moved by compassion for Caroline's desire to have her marriage blessed by her church.  It was reported that Princess Grace immediately appealed for an anullmentto the Junot marriage based upon "emotional immaturity". I read that Junot had been against a vatican anullment until Stephano died, then Junot relented.

Caroline's civil marriage to Ernst of Hanover was in 1999 and so far there is no formal seperation or divorce.

Stephanie has had two legal marriages.  She has never married in her church.  The first civil marriage was to Daniel Ducruet after their son and daughter were born.  The two married July 1995.  They divorced October 1996.  July 1998 she gave birth to Camille Gotlieb but did not marry Jean Raymond Gotlieb.  Her second civil marriage was September 2003 to Portuguese acrobat Adans Lopez Peres.  They divorced in November 2004 and never had children together.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 12:02:36 AM by swanlake » Logged
KittyHeaven

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« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2012, 12:03:59 AM »

swanlake...you are exactly correct on every point.  Star

I had forgotten that Junot had tried to hold things up, and relented after Stefano's death.  John Paul II had initially  been in favor of denying Caroline the annulment(why, I have no idea. The Junot interlude certainly was no one's idea of a marriage between two adults with the right intentions!) but thank God the Holy Father was moved by Caroline's grief and his own compassion for her situation to grant the annulment and legitimize her children.  Sad

Such as sad, sad situation.
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swanlake

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« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2012, 12:16:22 AM »

................. As for the Catholic part, I've never heard about the Church condemning a girl for getting pregnant. There seems to be a double standard. Only abortion would be a sin. Any thoughts from the Catholics on the forum?

No, the Catholic Church has always insisted upon babies being conceived and born after a church blessed marriage.
 If one has not heard of church condemnation for an out-of-wedlock birth or pregnancy, this is due to compassion for the girl or woman and probably an understanding of how difficult life will be for a single mother.  Also relief that an abortion did not take place.
 
There is no double standard here,  compassion and forgiveness are brought into these situations.  There is also compassion and forgiveness in the situation of abortion.  Abortion however is strictly forbidden and is regarded by the church as the willful taking of a life.  This is quite a contrast to an "illegitimate" birth where a life is brought forth into an unplanned or unpleasant situation.
 
Today the church states clearly that both fornication and abortion are a big no-no’s but anything that one confesses is forgiven.  Anything.  Only pompous finger pointers don’t forgive and judge and their attitude is frowned upon too because that is a very un-Christian way to behave.  So you see, everyone must be nice, kind and forgive.
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swanlake

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« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2012, 12:26:56 AM »

swanlake...you are exactly correct on every point.  Star

I had forgotten that Junot had tried to hold things up, and relented after Stefano's death.  John Paul II had initially  been in favor of denying Caroline the annulment(why, I have no idea. The Junot interlude certainly was no one's idea of a marriage between two adults with the right intentions!) but thank God the Holy Father was moved by Caroline's grief and his own compassion for her situation to grant the annulment and legitimize her children.  Sad

Such as sad, sad situation.

I don't know why the annulment took so long.  Perhaps because Caroline and Junot dated for a few years and were both adults that had reached the age of consent.  Also, the marriage was such a high profile situation.  The church may have been sensitive to that.  There was a lot of controversy due to the age difference.  Grace and Rainier tried to persuade Caroline not to marry.  They ever took her on a world-wide vacation, tried to send her to college in the USA.  Nothing worked.  Caroline was smitten and the marriage took place.  It is reported that Grace told Caroline that they could call the whole thing off.  This happened the week of the wedding.  Grace reported said, “well she will have a happy second marriage.”  Grace was sickened by the marriage, this was reported by Gwen Robins, her biographer.  I really think that since Caroline came from such a prominent family; this hurt her appeal for an annulment.  I don't know on what grounds it was granted.  Does anyone know?
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Hibou

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« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2012, 12:38:36 AM »

Rainier had a long and close tie with the Vatican. Father Tucker (the one who "found" Grace) came from the Vatican to Monaco. He solidified Monaco as a Catholic state. Those ties run deep, and Rainier made sure to politically keep it. So when Caroline asked for the annulment, she was guided by those close ties so that when she submitted for it she would most likely be granted. Junot for a longtime refused to help her obtain her annulment. After Stephano died, Junot had a change of heart and agreed to help her obtain it. Albert does not seem to have continued those close ties.
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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2012, 02:45:59 AM »

swanlake...you are exactly correct on every point.  Star

I had forgotten that Junot had tried to hold things up, and relented after Stefano's death.  John Paul II had initially  been in favor of denying Caroline the annulment(why, I have no idea. The Junot interlude certainly was no one's idea of a marriage between two adults with the right intentions!) but thank God the Holy Father was moved by Caroline's grief and his own compassion for her situation to grant the annulment and legitimize her children.  Sad

Such as sad, sad situation.

I don't know why the annulment took so long.  Perhaps because Caroline and Junot dated for a few years and were both adults that had reached the age of consent.  Also, the marriage was such a high profile situation.  The church may have been sensitive to that.  There was a lot of controversy due to the age difference.  Grace and Rainier tried to persuade Caroline not to marry.  They ever took her on a world-wide vacation, tried to send her to college in the USA.  Nothing worked.  Caroline was smitten and the marriage took place.  It is reported that Grace told Caroline that they could call the whole thing off.  This happened the week of the wedding.  Grace reported said, “well she will have a happy second marriage.”  Grace was sickened by the marriage, this was reported by Gwen Robins, her biographer.  I really think that since Caroline came from such a prominent family; this hurt her appeal for an annulment. I don't know on what grounds it was granted.  Does anyone know?


I think that I read somewhere...that the grounds for annulment were that one of the parties had no intention of fulfilling the marriage contract to remain faithful and start a family. I could be wrong, my memories are foggy. It could be also that the records are sealed and this is only hearsay.

Hibou, I also have noticed that the traditionally close ties to the Holy See under Albert's rule are....not so close. He snubbed the beatification ceremonies for John Paul II, and from what I understand Benedict XVI did not impart a Nuptial Benediction to Albert and Charlene at their wedding...which is unheard of for a high profile Catholic couple, particularly a Royal/Aristocratic couple. The Papal blessing is considered de rigeur for such occasions. There was not even one Cardinal present at the Albert/Charlene wedding...heck even the non-Catholic William and Kate had a Catholic cardinal at their wedding!  Shocked

Finally, Charlene has yet to be formally presented to the Pope as the new Princess of Monaco...something that normally happens within a few months of the wedding for other Royal and Princely brides.

It's all such a confusing mess. This marriage and everything about it is certainly a strange one, no doubt about it. Sad
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swanlake

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« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2012, 06:24:19 AM »

KittyHeavenI did not know that Monaco has not kept ties with the Vatican in the way that Prince  Rainier and Princess Grace did.  Grace's last film role was a documentary filmed at the Vatican.  It was on praying the rosary.  She and Rainier met all of the popes.  Maybe a royal couple have to ask for a papal blessing for their wedding vows and no one asked.  In any case it, this does not support an image of good PR at the palace.  I realize that no one could attend the funeral of Pope John Paul II because Prince Rainier's funeral arrangements took place at about the same time.  I think that I saw a photo of Prince Albert meeting the new Pope Benedict a year or two ago.  Yes Kittyheaven you are right, the new princess of Monaco should be presented to the pope.  I think that maybe Charlene is overwhelmed by her new job.  She looks frightened sometimes when she is going to an event in a room full of people.  Maybe meeting the pope is being put off but really, it is only about a 30 minute meeting.  The pope is 84 and does not have long meetings.  He is strict pope but cordial and polite, he does not bite.  Well, another thing for the PR at the palace to look into. I had heard that the pope was planning on visiting Monaco but that turned out to be a rumor.
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Miss Marple

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« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2012, 09:56:34 AM »

Quote

Hibou, I also have noticed that the traditionally close ties to the Holy See under Albert's rule are....not so close. He snubbed the beatification ceremonies for John Paul II, and from what I understand Benedict XVI did not impart a Nuptial Benediction to Albert and Charlene at their wedding...which is unheard of for a high profile Catholic couple, particularly a Royal/Aristocratic couple. The Papal blessing is considered de rigeur for such occasions. There was not even one Cardinal present at the Albert/Charlene wedding...heck even the non-Catholic William and Kate had a Catholic cardinal at their wedding!  Shocked

Finally, Charlene has yet to be formally presented to the Pope as the new Princess of Monaco...something that normally happens within a few months of the wedding for other Royal and Princely brides.

It's all such a confusing mess. This marriage and everything about it is certainly a strange one, no doubt about it. Sad

Well, I think the reason is that there is pope Benedict and not pope John Paul II now and he is dealing with the children, not with Grace and Reiner. John Paul 2seemed to have a very soft spot for the Grimaldis. Benedikt is rather a hardliner and he must be very disgusted by the facts that none of the nine children born to the Grimaldi children was born within a valid Catholic marriage (yes, I know now that Caroline's children were declared legitimate later on in their lives, but at the point of their birth ... nope). In Catholic eyes there is rather a lot of sin going on:

- Albert fathered two children with two women, lied for years about their existence and even denied their existance at all, he had no desire to marry any of their mothers, just fornication for fun (at least it looks that way), no Catholizism there

- Caroline married even though she was in the eyes of the church still married and had three children. After the tragic dead of her husband the Holy Father showed mercy and granted annulment and declared the children legitimate - then Caroline went off and commited adultery with EA.

- Stephanie: never got married in church, so she has three illegitimate childen in the Catholic sense (even though Pauline and Louis are declared legitimate in legal rights.

The annulment was a high profile thing and it was a big caritable favour IMO, especially that the children were declared legitimate later (big favour!). Basically Caroline and Junot were both adults at the time and you need to prove, to get an annulment granted, that there were reasons why you could not stay marrried to your spouse (in a Catholic sense) and these reasons just emerged before the marriage.

Example:
- my friend (the one who is looking for an annulment) met someone who is a devout Catholic. He met a girl, got engaged and married her. She took the pill before the wedding and he knew it. After that she first told him she was not believing anymore and then she left church. She also told him she did not want to have children. This attempt to get an annulment was turned down because he knew that she was not living according to Catholic standards (using contraception, ....) - he married her anyway, so there is no ground for an annulment. This is very tricky, church law is very tricky.

None of the three Grimaldi children show any signs of true remorse or the desire to lead a good Catholic life, so Benedict is right to distance himself the best he can. John Paul once believed Caroline and helped her, if this is done a second time the church is quickly losing credibility and it is setting lower standard because it can always be used as a precedent by other people.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 10:03:26 AM by Miss Marple » Logged
Miss Waynfleet

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« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2012, 02:56:29 PM »

Benedict  Snare The Vatican reprimanded American Nuns, because they focus too much on helping poor people instead of abortion or gay marriage.  Lolipop
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« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2012, 03:45:15 PM »

Re. Albert and the vatican: the pope was scheduled to visit Monaco (I believe this year) but cancelled.

And early on, Benedict said as a guideline that politicians agreeing with (pro-)abortion laws should be excommunicated, but he left the final decision to the parish concerned. Albert has signed some sort of abortion law, after a long delay.

So all in all, with the above, the illegitimate children and Albert's general non-catholic behaviour, somehow I don't think that Albert and Benedict are or will become best buddies. Blondie doesn't seem to have warmed to her newfound religion nor does she do anything to promote it or show affection for it.
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