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Schockobaerin

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« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2012, 02:52:51 AM »

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Rasputin used to see the daughters in their bed clothes to tuck them in at night or help them with their prayers.  Alexandra was ok with it. She thought he was far to holy to have any indecent thoughts or intentions.  Someone in the household told Nicholas and it stopped.   I have also read that Rasputin bragged to friends and acquaintances about him and Alexandra during drunken parties.  It was all untrue of course.   That is the extent of my knowledge about any such 'intimacy' between him and the royal family. 

It was Nicholas sister, i think Xenia, who saw it, and dismissed Rasputin of the girls room, but Rasputin wasnt stupid, he hadnt never dare to touch the princess or the empress, then he would lose everything, he played the "holy saint" with them... But to tell you the truth Rasputin was fascinating, how he "cured" alexei, he was special, i know he didnt died of the poison because his stomach was empty(hence no acids) and then they have to wait until the cyanid formed HCN (deadly), how he escaped, the man was a survivor, and a really good charlatan, he gave alexei was he wanted: to let be quiet, peace, alexei thought rasputin cured him, thats why he got better each time he was with rasputin, a placebo effect. But i have to say, Rasputin was a really inteligent man (sadly he didnt have a clue about military) and nicholas was stupid to believe him Thumb down
Alix was to be engaged to Albert Victor, the eldest son of edward vii, but he refused him, if not, she could have been queen of england, (george v married his dead brother´s fiancee), and george v and nicholas were alike. Such a wonderful love story, how sad it ended so tragically... And then came this fräulein unbekannt Ranting and made them famous
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BessieWallis Warfield

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« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2012, 04:17:56 AM »

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Rasputin used to see the daughters in their bed clothes to tuck them in at night or help them with their prayers.  Alexandra was ok with it. She thought he was far to holy to have any indecent thoughts or intentions.  Someone in the household told Nicholas and it stopped.   I have also read that Rasputin bragged to friends and acquaintances about him and Alexandra during drunken parties.  It was all untrue of course.   That is the extent of my knowledge about any such 'intimacy' between him and the royal family. 

It was Nicholas sister, i think Xenia, who saw it, and dismissed Rasputin of the girls room, but Rasputin wasnt stupid, he hadnt never dare to touch the princess or the empress, then he would lose everything, he played the "holy saint" with them... But to tell you the truth Rasputin was fascinating, how he "cured" alexei, he was special, i know he didnt died of the poison because his stomach was empty(hence no acids) and then they have to wait until the cyanid formed HCN (deadly), how he escaped, the man was a survivor, and a really good charlatan, he gave alexei was he wanted: to let be quiet, peace, alexei thought rasputin cured him, thats why he got better each time he was with rasputin, a placebo effect. But i have to say, Rasputin was a really inteligent man (sadly he didnt have a clue about military) and nicholas was stupid to believe him Thumb down
Alix was to be engaged to Albert Victor, the eldest son of edward vii, but he refused him, if not, she could have been queen of england, (george v married his dead brother´s fiancee), and george v and nicholas were alike. Such a wonderful love story, how sad it ended so tragically... And then came this fräulein unbekannt Ranting and made them famous

Yes, how he was able to cure Alexei IS fascinating.  I think it's generally thought that he hypnotized him, and somehow Alexei then self healed (the powers of the mind are really fascinating).  There have been these healers throughout history.  It's also suggested that Alexei did not self-heal due to his mother's stress, and Rasputin calmed Alexandra, which in turn calmed Alexei.  That sort of mind play between mother and child is just as fascinating.

The story of his death is also fascinating.  As much as I love to believe it, I think that the traditional story of the massive amounts of poison, the gunshots, and only ultimately drowning are tall tales, the stuff made of legends.
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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2012, 06:10:16 AM »

Nicholas and Alexandra were undoubtedly a great love story, but I often wonder if the Russian Revolution could have been delayed or even averted if Nicky hadn't wed Alix?

He was a weak man, but with a different spouse he might have been a better ruler.

The "what ifs" could go on and on....
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Butterbean

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« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2012, 10:15:10 AM »

IMO, I think they started out a great love story, but by the end, the tsar knew that Alix was a major driving force  in destroying Imperial Russia. I have read numerous accounts where Nicholas was asked by his family to abandon Alix and save the Imperial rule, but he replied that he could not abandon her, that he was all she had.

He seemed an intelligent man, and IMO, all the illness and her strange disposition which did not help her husbands position, wore him down, but he stood by her. Very sad. Also very sad that Olga died a very depressed young woman according to many accounts. 
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Schockobaerin

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« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2012, 11:14:57 AM »

IMO, I think they started out a great love story, but by the end, the tsar knew that Alix was a major driving force  in destroying Imperial Russia. I have read numerous accounts where Nicholas was asked by his family to abandon Alix and save the Imperial rule, but he replied that he could not abandon her, that he was all she had.

He seemed an intelligent man, and IMO, all the illness and her strange disposition which did not help her husbands position, wore him down, but he stood by her. Very sad. Also very sad that Olga died a very depressed young woman according to many accounts. 

About the what ifs.. I dont think anything would have been different if nicky would have married another princess, alix was the scapegoat, but dont forget, that nicholas mother´s was half german too(she seemed to forget this, and was mean because of Alix german background), The problem wasnt the heir, nicholas had a brother(michael), who anyway was killed. Nicholas big mistake was to listen to Alix, about politics, wtf? she didnt have an idea about politics and military stuff. About Alix, i give maria the big fault! if she hadnt bullied alix like she did, instead, would have she help her to warm to the russian people, and to overcome her shyness, russian people would had another impression of their tsaritsa, Maria was spiteful and mean to her, she had like 20 years to prepare herself to be an empress, and alix?? a week? two?. I think poor Maria payed a big price for her mistake, living alone and with all those impostors surroinding her like vulture on carrion.
History always repeat itself, after the french revolution, i dont understand why the monarchies didnt learn about it, French and russian revolution are so alike (besides the comunism) starving subjects who thought that killing their monarch was the best to change things, in france, well, it wasnt so bad, but russia in the soviet union, they had people like Stalin, who really was evil, and look how many lies and people died unter his reign. Nicholas and Alix could have learned a lot from queen v and prince albert, especially from albert, and be nearer to their subjects and their problems instead to live in a magical bubble who was doomed to explode anyway. About Olgas depression, no wonder, after her life was turned upside down, and she was the oldest, probably the only of the children who really understood what was happening and how bad their situation was... i would have been depressed too. The only good thing at the end, its that they were together until the very end, it would have been horrible to be separated and ignorant about the well being of the others, thats hell...
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« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2012, 12:44:51 PM »

Isn't it extraordinairily funny (and unfair) how we tend to blame the wives?
While we blame the csar for listening to his wife's useless and perhaps destructive advice on politics and military issues, making the huge mistakes mainly her fault, we also maintain the idea that had Nicholas married another, better informed woman, he would have been a better csar.
The idea of "making or marring a husband" is quite old, and extremely unfair to both parties: the one side is portrayed as a useless weakling and the other as a ill-advising bitch.

It is quite telling that none of the girls was bespoken to someone, anyone. But there was never really a serious proposal neither from one of the kingdoms abroad nor from inside the vast imperial family and russian aristocracy. All the girls were quite pretty and they would have been extremely eligible, perfect pedigree and a very handsome dowry. But nada...
This family was so pathologically tight, that not even in the face of execution the csar allowed his daughters out. There are very trustworthy suggestions that the regime had offered the daughters a safe journey out, since they were by semi salic law excluded from the succession. The csar declined.
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BessieWallis Warfield

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« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2012, 02:27:04 PM »

Isn't it extraordinairily funny (and unfair) how we tend to blame the wives?
While we blame the csar for listening to his wife's useless and perhaps destructive advice on politics and military issues, making the huge mistakes mainly her fault, we also maintain the idea that had Nicholas married another, better informed woman, he would have been a better csar.
The idea of "making or marring a husband" is quite old, and extremely unfair to both parties: the one side is portrayed as a useless weakling and the other as a ill-advising bitch.

It is quite telling that none of the girls was bespoken to someone, anyone. But there was never really a serious proposal neither from one of the kingdoms abroad nor from inside the vast imperial family and russian aristocracy. All the girls were quite pretty and they would have been extremely eligible, perfect pedigree and a very handsome dowry. But nada...
This family was so pathologically tight, that not even in the face of execution the csar allowed his daughters out. There are very trustworthy suggestions that the regime had offered the daughters a safe journey out, since they were by semi salic law excluded from the succession. The csar declined.


 Good post   


Agree 100%.  He didn't have to listen to her. 

As to whether the Russian Revolution wouldn't have happened, I don't know about that.  The seeds of discontent were brewing for a long, long time.  Perhaps not right then, and perhaps not as bloody and volatile.  People tend to get mad when they can't get food. 

And as for the daughters, I have heard they were offered a way out, but refused to leave the parents.  They were completely dependent on the parents.  They lived in complete isolation and the family unit was all they knew. 
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potahto

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« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2012, 03:01:20 PM »

IIRC there were a number of revolts and assassination/assassination attempts within the last century or prior to the revolution. Alexander II was assassinated, marking a much more firm ruling by Alexander III- it wasn't that the people were happier, but they certainly weren't being allowed to voice their discontent. I had read somewhere that he didn't think Nicholas was suited to be emperor, preferring Nicholas' brother, Michael- one can only imagine how comforting this thought would have been for Nicholas, when he inherited the throne.
Alexandra was a lonely, nervous woman, but I don't think she was the reason for the Russian Revolution.
As for the daughters, I think Maria and Tatiana would likely have married, while Olga and Anastasia remaining with the family. I don't think Alexandra would have forced them to stay with her (unless they wanted to), she did after all have her lady-in-waiting, (forgotten her name, Ana-something?I think?)
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Plum Royale

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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2012, 03:57:35 PM »

guy's I have some excerpts from Theo Aronsons' book Grandmama od Europe that you may find interesting.
.. Queen Victoria had always taken a special interest in the Hesse family. After the death, in 1878 of her second daughtervAlice, Grand Duchess of Hesse, the Queen had taken the 5 motherless Hesse children under her wing. As their father, Grand Duke Louis IV, was an easygoing sort of man, it was the Queen Victoria who had the most say in their lives. she paid frequent visits to Darmstadt; the children made prolonged annual stays in Britain. She had seen to it that their nanny, Mrs. Orchard, and their governesses, Miss Jackson and Miss Pryde, posted her regular reports on their education and behaviour. Even the pattern for the dresses had to be sent to grandmama for approval. "The grand Ducal family looked upon themselves almost as a branch of the English royal house.' wrote one observer. '
"They felt one with it,and took part in all th family festivals.
  on Alix, she was shy introspective young woman, deepy religious,obstinate sensitive and self critical. She was an intelligent almost intellectual girl. and yes, Prince Eddy did fall for her back in 1889 but shw already met Nick and yes, his parents didn't want Alix for their son they were hoping for Princess Helene, daughter of the Comte of Paris(also a Prince Eddy almost bride) Princess Margaret of Prussia.
On Alix being groomed by her grandmama to be the Empress:
The girl was brought over to England so the Queen  could supervise her health, her Russian lessons and her religious instruction. As Alix suffered from sciatica she was sent to Harrogate for a cure.   
on Nick becoming Tsar;  .. for him it was an appaling prospect. 'Sandro, what am I supposed to do?' he asked his BIL, with tears spilling from his blue eys. ' What is going to happen to me ... to all of Russia? I am not prepared to be a Tsar. I never wanted to be one. I know nothing of  the busniess od ruling. I have no idea od even how to talk to the ministers."
Queen Victoria was hardly less appalled. She was desperatly worried for her grandaughter. 'May god help them all!' shw wrote What a terrible load of responsibility and anxiety has been laid upon the poor children! I had hoped and trusted they would have many years of comarative quit and happiness before ascending to this thorny throne. so they went ahead and rushed the wedding ceromony, the Downwager  empress agreed but the Tsars younger brothers fet the wedding should take place publicly after the funeral.  About the wedding night ... There had been consummated that night, a deep and passionate love that would last for the rest of their lives. 'Never did I believe that there could be such utter happiness in this world' wrote Alix in her husband's diary that morning, ' such a feeling of unity between two mortal beings."  Wink
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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2012, 04:14:08 PM »

IMO, I think they started out a great love story, but by the end, the tsar knew that Alix was a major driving force  in destroying Imperial Russia. I have read numerous accounts where Nicholas was asked by his family to abandon Alix and save the Imperial rule, but he replied that he could not abandon her, that he was all she had.

He seemed an intelligent man, and IMO, all the illness and her strange disposition which did not help her husbands position, wore him down, but he stood by her. Very sad. Also very sad that Olga died a very depressed young woman according to many accounts.  
[/b]

Olga was deeply, deeply bonded to her father. I have read that there was often tension in the relationship between the Empress and her eldest daughter because the two simply didn't understand one another. Tatiana was Alix's favorite and the one that was most like her.

It breaks my heart to think about ALL of those children. The girls were so beautiful, what lives they might have had. At one point there was a plan to marry Olga to the CP of Romania(I think it was Romania)but reportedly she did not like him and insisted that she would only marry a Russian, or not at all.

ETA: ICAM with Schockobaerin about the similarities between the French and Russian Revolutions, and the Romanovs failure to learn from history. No
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BessieWallis Warfield

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« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2012, 04:43:42 PM »

Thanks, Plum! Victoria did oversee the Hesse children, and I'm not sure that was always a good thing.  If there was one thing Victoria did and did well, it was meddle in everyone else's business. I wonder what her four daughters in law thought of her.

Kitty, I've read that about Olga and Tatiana.  I think if Alexandra had married any of the girls off, it WOULD have been Olga.  Once Olga left, I think she would have reveled in her freedom.  I think she was too smart and too no-nonsense for Alexandra.  She was the smartest of the girls (Anastasia was clever and witty, but I think Olga was smarter).

Funny how Anastasia was the one who captured the public's imagination as the fabled rescued princess.  She had the least of offer.  By far, she was the least good looking.  She tended towards overweight, and I don't believe her personality was particularly engaging.  You would think more people would have run around pretended to be Tatiana, but perhaps she was too tall and slender for striking for most to pull it off. 
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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2012, 04:56:22 PM »

Edvard Radzinsky's book about the Romanovs is the best I have read so far...and trust me when I tell you that I have read many of them..starting when I was about twelve.(told ya I was obsessed!)  Smiley

Radzinsky writes like a poet-which is what he is. He discusses the family in all their glories and sadness, and he discusses their last days in haunting detail. In fact, I wish I hadn't learned some of the things he discloses. Ah well.  Sad

I think Alexandra would have tried to keep the beautiful and devoted Tatiana with her. Tatiana was maid, confidante and nurse to the Empress. The other children called her "The Governess". She wasn't the oldest but she was in charge. The guards at Ekaterinberg considered her the snootiest of the Grand Duchesses.

Most biographers consider her the most beautiful with her elegant slimness, height and almond shaped eyes. She was a beauty, but I always consider Maria the most beautiful. She was gorgeous.
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Schockobaerin

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« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2012, 05:35:58 PM »

Well, if i would have been one of the daughters, no way i was going somewhere without my parents, their hope was to get Asylum in england, but george v, had denied that asylum, i dont think they really knew, how dangerous the situation was, there is a lots of "what ifs", anyway what lenin did to kill 5 innocent children, it was awful  Nono and how they lied to the people, and created all this AA circus, they were cowards, plain and simple, at least the french killed the king and the queen in public, those cowards just did it with cold blood, and only God knows how those bastards profaned the girls bodies  Nerves nobody its perfect and nicholas and his family payed not only for their mistakes, but for their antecesors mistakes...

By the way, how was it possible that a lot of people believed that crazy AA was Anastasia, they arent even alike, just look at AA mouth.. just crazy
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BessieWallis Warfield

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« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2012, 06:20:26 PM »

Well, if i would have been one of the daughters, no way i was going somewhere without my parents, their hope was to get Asylum in england, but george v, had denied that asylum, i dont think they really knew, how dangerous the situation was, there is a lots of "what ifs", anyway what lenin did to kill 5 innocent children, it was awful  Nono and how they lied to the people, and created all this AA circus, they were cowards, plain and simple, at least the french killed the king and the queen in public, those cowards just did it with cold blood, and only God knows how those bastards profaned the girls bodies  Nerves nobody its perfect and nicholas and his family payed not only for their mistakes, but for their antecesors mistakes...

By the way, how was it possible that a lot of people believed that crazy AA was Anastasia, they arent even alike, just look at AA mouth.. just crazy

They believed it because the closest living relation to the Tsar was entitled to loads of lovely, lovely rubles sitting in an English bank account. Who'd not want to be her only living friend?   I'd have taken a poodle with a tiara, paraded it past the Empress and cried, "it's her reincarnation, g#$ dammit!  Just look at the deformed paw!  And look how she climbs onto you, Madam!  Every time she sees a picture of beloved Nicky she curtseys." 

Similarly, if you had a flair for writing and wrote a book detailing AA's comparisons to Anastasia, you made some nice money.  Same with newspaper articles, films, etc. 
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Schockobaerin

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« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2012, 06:31:53 PM »

Well, if i would have been one of the daughters, no way i was going somewhere without my parents, their hope was to get Asylum in england, but george v, had denied that asylum, i dont think they really knew, how dangerous the situation was, there is a lots of "what ifs", anyway what lenin did to kill 5 innocent children, it was awful  Nono and how they lied to the people, and created all this AA circus, they were cowards, plain and simple, at least the french killed the king and the queen in public, those cowards just did it with cold blood, and only God knows how those bastards profaned the girls bodies  Nerves nobody its perfect and nicholas and his family payed not only for their mistakes, but for their antecesors mistakes...

By the way, how was it possible that a lot of people believed that crazy AA was Anastasia, they arent even alike, just look at AA mouth.. just crazy

They believed it because the closest living relation to the Tsar was entitled to loads of lovely, lovely rubles sitting in an English bank account. Who'd not want to be her only living friend?   I'd have taken a poodle with a tiara, paraded it past the Empress and cried, "it's her reincarnation, g#$ dammit!  Just look at the deformed paw!  And look how she climbs onto you, Madam!  Every time she sees a picture of beloved Nicky she curtseys." 

Similarly, if you had a flair for writing and wrote a book detailing AA's comparisons to Anastasia, you made some nice money.  Same with newspaper articles, films, etc. 
Oh one  Star for you!!
You made me laugh like crazy, that people was crazy and so greedy, but to think about that they made the perfect fairy tale, the lost princess, who thought was an poor orphan... At the end it was a crazy woman, who pretended to be a princess  Thumb down How wrong is that...
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