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Author Topic: The Romanovs  (Read 144628 times)
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Schockobaerin

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« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2012, 06:18:21 PM »

I find it is awesome how many people are interested here, thats the only good thing AA did: To create a myth, and therefore many people interested in history, after films like "nicholas and alexandra" or Anastasia (both), people are really intrigued with the romanovs... My passion began when i went with my father to see the 20th animated version, i loved it, and my dad told me, that the persons really existed, but there were diferences with the film, he told me about the shooting(he is an historian freak, like me), then i´ve began to read, and to research in encarta( i loved my encarta) and internet... Now, with wikipedia and youtube, there is a lot of information, and it doesnt die, once i bought  a magazin about russia and its czar, and they spoke specially about rasputin, and then came the dilemma with his death, in this magazine(its a cientific one) they spoke that Rasputin was doomed because of the poison, the think is, the poison was Kaliumcyanyd(KCN), alone it isnt poisonous, but, when it comes in the stomach, the stomach acids(f.e HCl,) dissolve the salt, and create HCN, and this one is really poissonous, when Rasputin ate the cakes, his stomach was empty, hence no acids yet, as everything happened so fast, the prince didnt gave him time for to poison to take its effect... About the shootings, well it was adrenaline, when you have adrenaline, your body response is amazing. About the tsarevich and Poland, probably it was because Alexei himself thought Rasputin healed him, and the doctors were hovering over him, and didnt leave him in quiet, after Rasputin, he told Alexandra, that the doctors have to let boy alone, and well it worked, that the famous placebo effect, Rasputin was a very intelligent, who had a talent: He could manipulate the people, i dont think he was so bad, he wasnt a monk, and it was normal he partied.. The mistaken was Alexandra, who blinded, asked him advice, and well he gave her what she wanted, if she and nicholas taked it or not, it was their problem, i can tell everybody to go and jump from a bridge, but if you jump or not, well its your problem. About the note he let to alix, about his death, well kittyheaven has a really good idea, maybe it was for protection, he knew the aristos hated him, it was for protection, Rasputin the Holy man?? no, but a really interesting, inteligent and manipulativ? ohh yeah, a bad man?? I think he the other scapegoat with alix, he just did his job, if the people believed him, it was their problem, and Rasputin travelled a lot, and in his travels he learned a loooottt...

By the way i found a "jewel" from Anastasia, an animated film, it is soo bad, in this one nicholas, alix, alexei, and titania(anastasia has only one sister), were reincarnated in a tuba, a harp, a violin and a acordeon, and they could talk to anastasia, bla bla bla, it is sooo bad that i think poor kids, the bad boys were the checka police, well i stopped after like 5 minutes, because it was soo bad, but B-A-D... The Fox film wasnt acurate either, but like the russian said: It was good made, and wake a certain interest in history.. not like this other crap.... Ah i have to learn (this is my exam week, but im RD-addicted now Wink ) I hope this story isnt going to repeat itself, like everything.. Im a firm believer history keeps repeating itself...
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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2012, 07:44:46 PM »

I would have been interested with or without AA, frankly. I love Russian history and literature passionately.

As for AA, it's sad to admit but I always  hoped deep inside that she was NOT the real Anastasia for a couple of reasons...her lurid accounts of the rape and torture of the Imperial family during their imprisonment at Ekaterinberg, her assertion that even the Tsar was raped by the soldiers...are simply too horrible to contemplate. I know it's simplistic given the known savagery and inhumanity of the Bolsheviks, but I don't want to believe that those poor innocent girls AND their father endured such a thing.

If it did happen, I prefer to remain in denial about it, sorry.  No

Also, it's horrible to imagine that Anastasia survived and carried the psychic torment of her memories in her mind and heart and soul forever. It's easier to believe(for me at least) that she perished with her family and is at complete peace with them.

I never saw the Anastasia cartoons, movies etc. Just never was interested in a fictionalized cartoon of such a sad, brutal story.  No
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 07:55:06 PM by KittyHeaven » Logged
Little_star
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« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2012, 08:00:26 PM »

Little_star, it's a very intelligent guess...I never really thought of it!  Yes Star

Apparently St. Petersburg had been buzzing for weeks if not months that a plot was afoot to send the "holy devil" to his Maker.

He might have gotten wind that the aristo's were behind it, and to send out a warning.

Thanks Kitty.  Smiley Star and I agree with your theory. A warning makes sense especially when there was so much gossip about his abilities.

I've always meant to read more on the Romanovs so this thread has been fascinating.
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Badger

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« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2012, 08:08:58 PM »

I would have been interested with or without AA, frankly. I love Russian history and literature passionately.

As for AA, it's sad to admit but I always  hoped deep inside that she was NOT the real Anastasia for a couple of reasons...her lurid accounts of the rape and torture of the Imperial family during their imprisonment at Ekaterinberg, her assertion that even the Tsar was raped by the soldiers...are simply too horrible to contemplate. I know it's simplistic given the known savagery and inhumanity of the Bolsheviks, but I don't want to believe that those poor innocent girls AND their father endured such a thing.

If it did happen, I prefer to remain in denial about it, sorry.  No

Also, it's horrible to imagine that Anastasia survived and carried the psychic torment of her memories in her mind and heart and soul forever. It's easier to believe(for me at least) that she perished with her family and is at complete peace with them.

I never saw the Anastasia cartoons, movies etc. Just never was interested in a fictionalized cartoon of such a sad, brutal story.  No

I prefer to think of her as a beautiful young Grand Duchess than a dotty old woman myself.  The one that has always fascinated me is the Empress Dowager. Although I know it never happened in real life, I always love the scenes in the "Anastasia" movies where they meet for the first time since the Revolution.  
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Schockobaerin

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« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2012, 02:49:26 AM »

I would have been interested with or without AA, frankly. I love Russian history and literature passionately.

As for AA, it's sad to admit but I always  hoped deep inside that she was NOT the real Anastasia for a couple of reasons...her lurid accounts of the rape and torture of the Imperial family during their imprisonment at Ekaterinberg, her assertion that even the Tsar was raped by the soldiers...are simply too horrible to contemplate. I know it's simplistic given the known savagery and inhumanity of the Bolsheviks, but I don't want to believe that those poor innocent girls AND their father endured such a thing.

If it did happen, I prefer to remain in denial about it, sorry.  No

Also, it's horrible to imagine that Anastasia survived and carried the psychic torment of her memories in her mind and heart and soul forever. It's easier to believe(for me at least) that she perished with her family and is at complete peace with them.

I never saw the Anastasia cartoons, movies etc. Just never was interested in a fictionalized cartoon of such a sad, brutal story.  No

I prefer to think of her as a beautiful young Grand Duchess than a dotty old woman myself.  The one that has always fascinated me is the Empress Dowager. Although I know it never happened in real life, I always love the scenes in the "Anastasia" movies where they meet for the first time since the Revolution.  
Yeah, i know what you mean, i loved the animated film ( i was 13 at the time) and how it ended, the bad guy rasputin was really funny, and they did a fairy tale of it, that was the reason i was so outraged when i saw they other thing... But there is another cartoon, when they tell the truth, also that poor anastasia died with her family. The soldats at ipatiev house were nice to the girls, specially to marie, i think many had a crush in the princesses, but then came yurovski and they were dismissed, I think if one of those soldats would have been in the shooting, then maybe anastasia and marie would have been rescued (they were still alive, when they were alone in the car), they started to scream, and those men kept punching them, if they wanted to kill them, why didnt they just poisoned them? and why waited for so long time, and ok, if they were to be executed, why didnt they just put a gun in their heads, that would have been a merciful painless death, not with bayonets and punching, that was awful... why to kill the poor servants? im asking myself if sometimes later they did regret something...
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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2012, 05:39:59 AM »

It took longer for the girls to die because they had sewn jewelry into their undergarments to hide them, so the bayonets kept hitting the jewels instead of piercing their bodies.

The Empress and the Emperor were the first to die, and they died instantly with a bullet to the head.

But the five Imperial children...the only true innocents in the entire sad saga..were the ones who suffered and took longest to die.  No Cry

I don't know how those executioners(I refuse to give them the dignity of calling them soldiers) could be so full of hate and so bereft of all humanity to carry it out.

Even the poor dog was not spared. Angry
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swanlake

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« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2012, 06:58:28 AM »

Yes, I read about their slow horrific deaths too.  I can not imagine what they must have gone through.  Even after their deaths their bodies were so disrespected.  They were burried, dug up, thrown down a mine shaft, explosives thrown down to blow up and dismember the bodies. Brought back up, acid poured over them, two bodies were burned, then buried again.  The devil and the Bolsheviks were busy.

Which of the royal women was declared a saint?  I understand that the entire royal family are regarded as martyred saints.  But there was an aunt, her husband had been assassinated, blown up with a bomb.  Their marriage was cold and childless.  She was murdered too and I think that she was also thrown down a mineshaft but I think that she was alive when she was throw down the shaft and the she was shot.  I think that she became a nun after her husband was murdered.
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swanlake

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« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2012, 07:09:05 AM »

Quote
KittyHeaven Quote  : I have to admit that the AA case still confuses and troubles me. How did that woman know so many intimate details about the family life of the Romanovs?
 
I was especially blown away to learn that she was able to talk in detail about the secret journey Alix's brother Ernie made to Tsarskoe Selo either during or before World War I, to try and extricate Russia and the Romanovs from the cataclysm...this did not become public knowledge until many years later and to my knowledge, no one has been able to explain how AA got the information

It is almost impossible to know the workings of a mentally ill mind.  She was clever, crafty and knew what she was doing.  A crazy mind expresses odd behavior in certain ways that are not acceptable to the rest of us.  A part of her mind was very unwell.  The rest of her mind was calculating, manipulative, smart, opportunistic and ballsy.  Her actions were not kind either.  So many of the surviving relations suffered from her allegations .
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 07:14:52 AM by swanlake » Logged
swanlake

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« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2012, 07:26:56 AM »

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swanlake

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« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2012, 07:32:46 AM »

 A lovely portrait
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Badger

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« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2012, 07:38:51 AM »

I believe the entire family (Tsar, Tsarina and all the children) were canonized in the Russian Orthodox Church.
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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2012, 03:54:34 PM »

I believe the entire family (Tsar, Tsarina and all the children) were canonized in the Russian Orthodox Church.

Yes Badger, they were about five or six years ago. There was some controversy in the Orthodox Church...I think the debate was whether or not they merited canonization. But no matter what their flaws, errors and misdeeds were as rulers, there is no doubt in my opinion that from the time of their captivity until their murders the conduct of Nicky and Alix was nothing short of saintly.

And of course the children and the servants were completely innocent.

swanlake...thanks so much for going to the trouble of putting up that geneology table and those photos...it's beautiful!  Star

And the woman you are trying to remember in your post was Grand Duchess Elizabeth, sister of Alix and wife of Sergei who was blown to pieces by a bomb in the Kremlin a few years before the Revolution. After his murder Elizabeth(Ella) took vows as a nun and founded a religious order. She tried valiantly and desperately to get her sister to cut Rasputin out of her life, but instead Alix cut Ella out and never spoke to her again.

Ella was imprisoned and murdered by the Bolsheviks along with several other members of the Imperial family on the night before Nicky and Alix and their children were killed....they were all thrown down an mine shaft and some of them had been shot as well.

Her body was eventually exhumed and she is buried in Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives. She was also canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 04:02:52 PM by KittyHeaven » Logged
BessieWallis Warfield

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« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2012, 04:05:24 PM »

A lovely portrait


That is a truly exquisite portrait.  All of these portraits are of course touched up - the photoshopping of the day.  I never realized how beautiful Olga was - I think she was the real beauty.  And she had the brains, she did not suffer fools gladly (read: her mother).  I think she was prettier than Tatiana.  Tatiana was called elegant, but I'd rather talk to a brain than a clothes horse. 

It's too bad Olga did not marry quickly in 1914.  She was certainly old enough.  I'm sure her grief at the fate of her family would have been enormous and scarred her for life, but hey, she'd be alive, and maybe she'd be able to create some semblance of happiness and put things finally in perspective.  Wasn't the 1920's when people started really using psychiatry and the therapeutic process?  Maybe she was smart enough to have done so.

Had that scenario played out and had she survived and gone through successful therapy, she probably would have ultimately left royal life and moved in some anonymity.  If she were surrounded by royals and ex-pat Russian aristocrats, she would have heard nothing but crying and screaming, and beating of breasts, reliving the whole nightmare and bringing it up over and over and over.  I could just imagine all of these "well-meaning" people insistent on reliving the details of the family's last days continually, and all over tea and cakes, dabbing at their eyes with their hankies, all in front of Olga (shudder!).
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Schockobaerin

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« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2012, 05:47:11 PM »

Yes, I read about their slow horrific deaths too.  I can not imagine what they must have gone through.  Even after their deaths their bodies were so disrespected.  They were burried, dug up, thrown down a mine shaft, explosives thrown down to blow up and dismember the bodies. Brought back up, acid poured over them, two bodies were burned, then buried again.  The devil and the Bolsheviks were busy.

Which of the royal women was declared a saint?  I understand that the entire royal family are regarded as martyred saints.  But there was an aunt, her husband had been assassinated, blown up with a bomb.  Their marriage was cold and childless.  She was murdered too and I think that she was also thrown down a mineshaft but I think that she was alive when she was throw down the shaft and the she was shot.  I think that she became a nun after her husband was murdered.
You are talking about Ella, Alix older sister, she was a very beautiful woman, kaiser Wilhem, was in love with her, but she rejected him, then she fell in love wiht a russian grand duke, and married him, alix was visiting her sister, as she met nicholas (maybe im wrong), Ella and his husband adopted two children, whose mother died in childbirth, i think they were his nephew and niece, but her husband was killed a couple of years before the revolution, she turned herself to a nun, and was one of alixs confidants.
Poor Ella was killed in a very evil manner, she was trown alive in a mine (10 mt deep), and those assains trown grenates to them, ella survived, but a the very end, they died, what a horrendous death the bolsheviks gave their enemies...
"After Sergei’s death, Elizabeth wore mourning clothes and became a vegetarian. In 1909, she sold off her magnificent collection of jewels and sold her other luxurious possessions; even her wedding ring was not spared. With the proceeds she opened the Convent of Sts. Martha and Mary and became its abbess. She soon opened a hospital, a chapel, a pharmacy and an orphanage on its grounds. Elizabeth and her nuns worked tirelessly among the poor and the sick of Moscow. She often visited Moscow’s worst slums and did all she could to help alleviate the suffering of the poor.

For many years, Elizabeth's institution helped the poor and the orphans in Moscow by fostering the prayer and charity of devout women. Here, there arose a vision of a renewed diaconate for women, one that combined intercession and action in the heart of a disordered world. Although the Orthodox Church rejected her idea of a female diaconate, it did bless and encourage Elizabeth's many charitable efforts."

How could they kill someone as good as her?? Lenin is problably burning in hell for all his crimes...
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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2012, 06:00:47 PM »

A lovely portrait


That is a truly exquisite portrait.  All of these portraits are of course touched up - the photoshopping of the day.  I never realized how beautiful Olga was - I think she was the real beauty.  And she had the brains, she did not suffer fools gladly (read: her mother).  I think she was prettier than Tatiana.  Tatiana was called elegant, but I'd rather talk to a brain than a clothes horse. 

It's too bad Olga did not marry quickly in 1914.  She was certainly old enough.  I'm sure her grief at the fate of her family would have been enormous and scarred her for life, but hey, she'd be alive, and maybe she'd be able to create some semblance of happiness and put things finally in perspective.  Wasn't the 1920's when people started really using psychiatry and the therapeutic process?  Maybe she was smart enough to have done so.

Had that scenario played out and had she survived and gone through successful therapy, she probably would have ultimately left royal life and moved in some anonymity.  If she were surrounded by royals and ex-pat Russian aristocrats, she would have heard nothing but crying and screaming, and beating of breasts, reliving the whole nightmare and bringing it up over and over and over.  I could just imagine all of these "well-meaning" people insistent on reliving the details of the family's last days continually, and all over tea and cakes, dabbing at their eyes with their hankies, all in front of Olga (shudder!).


BWW...I can't thank you enough for scanning this glorious and haunting portrait of the Romanovs Star  Thumb up.I can't know for certain, but I think for many people who can't let go of their story, the key is those beautiful and tragic children. I honestly do not think if it had only been Nicholas and Alexandra who met their brutal end in the Ipatiev basement the fascination(in some cases obsession) with this family would be so enduring. It is those five innocent children who are the primary reason that for a close to a century after it all happened they continue their hold on the imagination of so many. This is only my opinion of course.

The great tragedy of Nicholas's life-and Alix's too...was that they were essentially a simple couple who would have been suited-not to mention much happier-living in the English countryside as anonymous aristocrats.

If their cousins in England had been more pro-active in negotiating with Kerensky's Provisional Government for their release while there was still time to do so, I can well imagine that that was the kind of life they would have settled into.

Nicholas and especially Alexandra would have been horrified and depressed as expatriates living in Britain to see what their beloved country descended to under Stalin and the Bolsheviks...but at least they and their children would have been alive.
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