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Author Topic: New Hapsburg Niblets?????  (Read 906198 times)
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Zazoo

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« Reply #3525 on: September 22, 2020, 07:26:33 PM »

According to this website, Henri and Gabriella's consanguinity index is 4.74%: http://www.thepeerage.com/p70499.htm#i704990

Aimone and Olga's consanguinity index is 4.84%: http://www.thepeerage.com/p34149.htm#i341482

An explanation from the website:

Quote
Throughout the database, I show a Consanguinity Index (more correctly referred to as Wright’s Equation or a Cumulative Inbreeding Coefficient) for individuals where this is greater than zero.  This is a measure of how much the parents of the individual are related to each other, and therefore how inbreed that individual is.  In theory this index ranges from zero (completely unrelated) to close to one (parents are the same person).  In practice this measure is maxed out at around 0.28 where an individual’s parents were uncle and niece (evidently a common practice among the medieval Spanish royalty).

Sorry maybe I’m a bit stupid but if one equals the parents are the same person and the have the quadruple of that who allow them to marry? Isn’t stupid play russian roulette with your children genes (and potential health problems) or I understood wrong the Consanguine index 
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« Reply #3526 on: September 22, 2020, 07:51:29 PM »

Yes, I had forgotten about Aimone and Olga.  At least she benefits from her mother's non-royal genes...  He comes from a long line of first-cousin and the rare second-cousin marriage.  The 19th and 20th century Orleans family was worse than the Spanish Habsburgs!
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« Reply #3527 on: September 22, 2020, 08:56:19 PM »

Are Gabriela’s parents double second cousins Huh? I can’t tell if I’m reading it correctly. I know they’re the Habsburgs, but with all the information we have now about cousin marriages...

ETA I’m happy they seem to have worked out their relationship and seem happy. I know there was a lot of doubt at first, so good for them and for their daughter.

Parents of Gabriella = 2nd cousins
Parents of Henri = 2nd cousins

Both newly weds are descendants of Grandduchess Charlotte of Luxembourg (and her husband Prince Felix of Bourbon-Parma). Via Marie Astrid (mother Gabriella) and Marie Gabriela (grandmother Henri).

They all have in common (newlyweds and parents) that they descend of Robert I, Duke of Parma.

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« Reply #3528 on: September 23, 2020, 07:32:59 AM »

Let's see, their ancestory is very much intertwined


b.b) 1st son: Grand Duke Jean of Luxembourg x Princess Josephine Charlotte of Belgium
b.b.b) 1st daughter: Princess Marie Astrid of Luxembourg x Archduke Carl Christian of Austria (= 2nd cousins)
b.b.b.b) 2nd daughter: Archduchess Gabriella

Going back 1 more generation to Miguel I of Portugal and Adelaide of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg, there are even more cousin marriages:

Miguel I -> Infanta Maria Josepha -> Duchess Elisabeth in Bavaria -> Leopold III of Belgium -> Josephine Charlotte
Miguel I -> Infanta Maria Ana -> Charlotte, Grand Duchess of Luxembourg -> Jean
Miguel I -> Infanta Maria Antonia -> Prince Felix of Bourbon-Parma -> Jean

Jean and Josephine Charlotte were 2nd cousins once removed, twice over.

Quote
c.c) 2nd son: Prince Michel of Bourbon-Parma x 1. Princess Yolande de Broglie-Revel; 2.  Princess Maria Pia of Savoy
c.c.c) 1st son by 1st wife: Prince Eric of Bourbon-Parma x Countess Lydia of Holstein-Ledreborg (= 2nd cousins)
c.c.c.c) 2nd son Prince Henri of Bourbon-Parma

Miguel I -> Infanta Maria Antonia -> Prince Rene of Bourbon-Parma -> Prince Michel of Bourbon-Parma
Miguel I -> Infanta Maria Josepha -> Duchess Elisabeth in Bavaria -> Marie-Jose of Belgium, Queen of Italy -> Princess Maria Pia of Savoy

So Henri's grandfather and step-grandmother are also Jean 2nd cousins once removed; it's rumored that Maria Pia's younger children are fathered by Michel when they were both still married to their first spouses. And Maria Pia and Josephine Charlotte are first cousins.



Henri and Gabriella both also descend from the Danish royal family, although more distantly -- 4th cousins once removed.

1) Christian IX, King of Denmark x Louise of Hesse-Kassel

a) 1st son: Frederick VIII, King of Denmark x Louisa of Sweden
b) 3rd son: Valdemar of Denmark x Marie of Orleans

a.a) 2nd daughter: Ingeborg of Denmark x Carl of Sweden
a.a.a) 3rd daughter: Astrid of Sweden x Leopold III, King of Belgium
a.a.a.a) 1st daughter: Josephine Charlotte of Belgium x Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg
a.a.a.a.a) 1st daughter: Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg x Carl Christian of Austria
a.a.a.a.a.a) 2nd daughter: Gabriella of Austria x Henri of Bourbon-Parma

b.b) only daughter: Margrethe of Denmark x Rene of Bourbon-Parma
b.b.b) 2nd son: Michel of Bourbon-Parma x 1. Yolande de Broglie-Revel; 2. Maria Pia of Savoy
b.b.b.b) 2nd son: Erik of Bourbon-Parma x Lydia of Holstein-Ledreborg
b.b.b.b.b) 2nd son: Henri of Bourbon-Parma x Gabriella of Austria



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« Reply #3529 on: September 23, 2020, 08:11:13 AM »

According to this website, Henri and Gabriella's consanguinity index is 4.74%: http://www.thepeerage.com/p70499.htm#i704990

Aimone and Olga's consanguinity index is 4.84%: http://www.thepeerage.com/p34149.htm#i341482

An explanation from the website:

Quote
Throughout the database, I show a Consanguinity Index (more correctly referred to as Wright’s Equation or a Cumulative Inbreeding Coefficient) for individuals where this is greater than zero.  This is a measure of how much the parents of the individual are related to each other, and therefore how inbreed that individual is.  In theory this index ranges from zero (completely unrelated) to close to one (parents are the same person).  In practice this measure is maxed out at around 0.28 where an individual’s parents were uncle and niece (evidently a common practice among the medieval Spanish royalty).

Sorry maybe I’m a bit stupid but if one equals the parents are the same person and the have the quadruple of that who allow them to marry? Isn’t stupid play russian roulette with your children genes (and potential health problems) or I understood wrong the Consanguine index 

The explanation is confusing. It says the range is from 0 to 1, but the value is given as a percentage, so their index is actually 0,0474 out of 1 or 4,74 out of 100, not 4,74 out of 1 - fortunately 😬
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Zazoo

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« Reply #3530 on: September 23, 2020, 08:28:39 AM »

According to this website, Henri and Gabriella's consanguinity index is 4.74%: http://www.thepeerage.com/p70499.htm#i704990

Aimone and Olga's consanguinity index is 4.84%: http://www.thepeerage.com/p34149.htm#i341482

An explanation from the website:

Quote
Throughout the database, I show a Consanguinity Index (more correctly referred to as Wright’s Equation or a Cumulative Inbreeding Coefficient) for individuals where this is greater than zero.  This is a measure of how much the parents of the individual are related to each other, and therefore how inbreed that individual is.  In theory this index ranges from zero (completely unrelated) to close to one (parents are the same person).  In practice this measure is maxed out at around 0.28 where an individual’s parents were uncle and niece (evidently a common practice among the medieval Spanish royalty).

Sorry maybe I’m a bit stupid but if one equals the parents are the same person and the have the quadruple of that who allow them to marry? Isn’t stupid play russian roulette with your children genes (and potential health problems) or I understood wrong the Consanguine index 

The explanation is confusing. It says the range is from 0 to 1, but the value is given as a percentage, so their index is actually 0,0474 out of 1 or 4,74 out of 100, not 4,74 out of 1 - fortunately

Thanks Anna! Here we can see why maths was both my worst high school and university courses  Blush
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« Reply #3531 on: September 23, 2020, 09:56:25 AM »

Let's see, their ancestory is very much intertwined


b.b) 1st son: Grand Duke Jean of Luxembourg x Princess Josephine Charlotte of Belgium
b.b.b) 1st daughter: Princess Marie Astrid of Luxembourg x Archduke Carl Christian of Austria (= 2nd cousins)
b.b.b.b) 2nd daughter: Archduchess Gabriella

Going back 1 more generation to Miguel I of Portugal and Adelaide of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg, there are even more cousin marriages:

Miguel I -> Infanta Maria Josepha -> Duchess Elisabeth in Bavaria -> Leopold III of Belgium -> Josephine Charlotte
Miguel I -> Infanta Maria Ana -> Charlotte, Grand Duchess of Luxembourg -> Jean
Miguel I -> Infanta Maria Antonia -> Prince Felix of Bourbon-Parma -> Jean

Jean and Josephine Charlotte were 2nd cousins once removed, twice over.

Quote
c.c) 2nd son: Prince Michel of Bourbon-Parma x 1. Princess Yolande de Broglie-Revel; 2.  Princess Maria Pia of Savoy
c.c.c) 1st son by 1st wife: Prince Eric of Bourbon-Parma x Countess Lydia of Holstein-Ledreborg (= 2nd cousins)
c.c.c.c) 2nd son Prince Henri of Bourbon-Parma

Miguel I -> Infanta Maria Antonia -> Prince Rene of Bourbon-Parma -> Prince Michel of Bourbon-Parma
Miguel I -> Infanta Maria Josepha -> Duchess Elisabeth in Bavaria -> Marie-Jose of Belgium, Queen of Italy -> Princess Maria Pia of Savoy

So Henri's grandfather and step-grandmother are also Jean 2nd cousins once removed; it's rumored that Maria Pia's younger children are fathered by Michel when they were both still married to their first spouses. And Maria Pia and Josephine Charlotte are first cousins.



Henri and Gabriella both also descend from the Danish royal family, although more distantly -- 4th cousins once removed.

1) Christian IX, King of Denmark x Louise of Hesse-Kassel

a) 1st son: Frederick VIII, King of Denmark x Louisa of Sweden
b) 3rd son: Valdemar of Denmark x Marie of Orleans

a.a) 2nd daughter: Ingeborg of Denmark x Carl of Sweden
a.a.a) 3rd daughter: Astrid of Sweden x Leopold III, King of Belgium
a.a.a.a) 1st daughter: Josephine Charlotte of Belgium x Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg
a.a.a.a.a) 1st daughter: Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg x Carl Christian of Austria
a.a.a.a.a.a) 2nd daughter: Gabriella of Austria x Henri of Bourbon-Parma

b.b) only daughter: Margrethe of Denmark x Rene of Bourbon-Parma
b.b.b) 2nd son: Michel of Bourbon-Parma x 1. Yolande de Broglie-Revel; 2. Maria Pia of Savoy
b.b.b.b) 2nd son: Erik of Bourbon-Parma x Lydia of Holstein-Ledreborg
b.b.b.b.b) 2nd son: Henri of Bourbon-Parma x Gabriella of Austria





Thank you very much for the addition!!  Thumb up  Star

I have a slight fascination with royal/noble genealogy
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« Reply #3532 on: September 23, 2020, 10:07:55 AM »

https://royaldish.com/index.php?topic=17004.0
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« Reply #3533 on: September 23, 2020, 03:58:54 PM »

Excerpts from Point de Vue's report from the wedding of Gabriella and Henri.  (Please forgive some of my awkward translations.)

It is 4 p.m. sharp at Trazberg Castle, a Renaissance gem located northeast of Innsbruck. It is a picture postcard landscape that … Gabriella from Habsburg-Lorraine has chosen for her wedding… There is only one condition, however, for the nuptials to take place in these times of Covid-19: the entire ceremony must take place outdoors. Gabriella hasn't slept all night. The day before, the small icon on her smart phone announced thunderstorms in the middle of the afternoon …. Finally, on D-day, not a cloud disturbs the blue sky: wearing sunglasses and duly equipped with their mass booklet, the guests - a hundred, no more - gathered in the courtyard of the castle, impatiently waiting for the entrance procession, soon to be announced by The March of the Prince of Denmark by Jeremiah Clark.

It begins with the eight children of honor: dressed in Bavaria's colors, dirndl for girls and lederhosen for boys. In the middle of this playfully unruly team, [their daughter] Princess Victoria, seems a little intimidated. Not for long. Barely seated in her chair, near the choir, the little girl who will turn 3 next month cannot resist the urge to run back to her father, who arrives in front of the altar. Here she is on her knees listening to the astonishing hymn by one of the little singers of Wilten's Boys’ Choir and feverishly watching the entrance of the bride on the arm of her father Carl-Christian of Habsburg-Lorraine. "Victoria came with us in front and did not want to leave us, almost a marriage of three" admits the queen of the day.

…In addition to being the great-granddaughter of the last Austrian emperor, Blessed Charles I, Gabriella is also one of the nieces of the current Luxembourg sovereign. Even though both families are close, Henri is less fortunate. His father, Eric de Bourbon-Parma, stayed in Florida. So, to make room for him in the assembly, one of his brothers does not hesitate to break from protocol to hold his red smartphone high, throughout the mass. From the United States, he is therefore an emotional father who can follow the wedding of his youngest child live, listen religiously to the exchange of consents and even jump, like the rest of the group, at the shots fired, … in order to punctuate the "yes" of the married couple. "We would remarry again, just to repeat those words to each other." Gabriella confides, particularly moved by this moment.

It is the Schutzen de Stans, from a neighboring village, who form an honor guard to surround the outing of the young spouses ... before sharing with them a comforting glass of schnapps. "A typical Austrian tradition before I entered the Danish values," Gabriella emphasizes. Nothing like it to face the rest of the festivities: A tasty cocktail or the Bavarian beer Kong Ludwig, a wedding gift from Henri's godfather, flows freely, then the Viennese dinner and its monumental sacher torte for dessert.

At 11 pm, the bride and her father open the ball on a Viennese waltz. No sooner has she changed partners for her first dance steps with her husband when she finds herself surrounded by some cousins and friends of Henri, determined to honor his Danish origins: to have lifted the bridegroom on their shoulders. They confiscate his shoes and cut off the ends of his socks. a custom intended to guarantee the fidelity of the husband, who would have more difficulty playing the seductress with holey socks. A new costume which does not prevent him from starting to dance again and to savor this holiday which everyone enjoys all the more as it puts an end to months of isolation and family estrangement. "It is as if the sun, shining with all its might, had comforted our choice and protected our union."
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« Reply #3534 on: September 23, 2020, 06:39:15 PM »

Marrying a 2nd cousin is just too close for me.  I think of all my 2nd cousins I grew-up with and it's a big NO to think of even just dating.


I know ! I think is weird for most of us but for a Haspburg is pretty tame or something. Don’t forget that they bully Kathlyn at her wedding for not being a rich princess of a non-existing la la land And be at least twice related to them.

I know it’s been tossed around that Imre’s family were rude to Kathleen, but my earlier post in this thread show the very gracious wedding toast of Imre’s father, and a happy set of families sharing a celebration.  Would you mine providing some background as to where you saw the bullying take place?

My previous post below:

——————-


Remember when Imre and Katie got married and there was a bit of kerfuffle that supposedly Imre’s father was rude in his wedding speech?

Found it on line and both he and Imre’s brother did rather charming, loving speeches. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vNbp0c8nqgw

Starts at 2:04 and back again at 3:25.

Religious references galore but that’s who they are....

I was rather happy that the family hadn’t been wankers to Katie, but they still should have brought a tiara for her....
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« Reply #3535 on: September 23, 2020, 07:03:34 PM »

Marrying a 2nd cousin is just too close for me.  I think of all my 2nd cousins I grew-up with and it's a big NO to think of even just dating.


I know ! I think is weird for most of us but for a Haspburg is pretty tame or something. Don’t forget that they bully Kathlyn at her wedding for not being a rich princess of a non-existing la la land And be at least twice related to them.

I know it’s been tossed around that Imre’s family were rude to Kathleen, but my earlier post in this thread show the very gracious wedding toast of Imre’s father, and a happy set of families sharing a celebration.  Would you mine providing some background as to where you saw the bullying take place?

My previous post below:

——————-


Remember when Imre and Katie got married and there was a bit of kerfuffle that supposedly Imre’s father was rude in his wedding speech?

Found it on line and both he and Imre’s brother did rather charming, loving speeches. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vNbp0c8nqgw

Starts at 2:04 and back again at 3:25.

Religious references galore but that’s who they are....

I was rather happy that the family hadn’t been wankers to Katie, but they still should have brought a tiara for her....

Somewhere around this thread you would find the video link (honestly I can’t remember who posted it at the time) there wasn’t an outright remark per se if my memory doesn’t deceive me his father had done a few snobby remarks about bloodline and their importance. they are after all bit weird about that considering that Hapsburgs are notorious for trying to marrying nobles still to this day.Plus I remember something about the reception, like who had to paid at the time and what etc. But truly I don’t think there was anything substantial on that front just rumors so I guess we can take it with a grain of salt. Lastly the biggest insult was the tiara as you already mentioned. Considering they brought it to france few months later for their other son’s then bride to be. So I don’t know what to make of it. That’s my assumptions and many others here, lets hope that things have change and for the sake of their children they have a good relationship.
I don’t have problem with them per se other than they have this obsession with titles that are dead for centuries and that Katie once was aggressive pro lifer (wasn’t she harassing people out of abortion clinics). You can believe in what ever you want as long as you don’t shove it down my throat.
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« Reply #3536 on: September 24, 2020, 05:11:18 AM »

Zazoo, can you provide the link you mention in this thread, the “snobby remarks” one?  I cannot find it but if you’ve watched it here, i would like to also. The link I provided shows warm wishes. Perhaps you”ve read an account from someone who attended?
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« Reply #3537 on: September 24, 2020, 09:13:35 AM »

Zazoo, can you provide the link you mention in this thread, the “snobby remarks” one?  I cannot find it but if you’ve watched it here, i would like to also. The link I provided shows warm wishes. Perhaps you”ve read an account from someone who attended?

So when I joined RD it was already a couple of years after their wedding so i had to go back a read few other threads in order to understand what was happening at the time

https://royaldish.com/index.php?topic=10147.0

This is the thread that was for their weeding, the speech discussions starts around page 11. I don’t have the time to reread now but the video became private so search  there If any other poster has posted a transcript. sorry that I cannot provide you with more direct links but this is what my quick morning search result

Plus this link was Katie only and I’m sure if you search around here you can find more information.


https://royaldish.com/index.php?topic=14396.0
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« Reply #3538 on: September 24, 2020, 03:41:41 PM »

Zazoo, I’ve followed & participated in this thread for years; I truly do not need to search it, as I know its contents. 

The video I recently posted was the only one that is currently available, which shows the family graciously giving speeches to the couple.  From your posts, it seemed that you had seen actual (other) videos and had actual first hand narratives of “snobby” words spoken by Imre’s family to Kathleen’s family.  I would love to see those - I find the situation fascinating.

If you don’t, that’s fine.  We certainly dish here without it.  Your posts on the topic, however, seemed to indicate that there was more out there that you have seen (personally seen) other than inside this thread, which again I don’t need to search and you seem disinclined to do so.  If you have anything else that you can post, I’d be really glad to view it. 

As a US resident who went to a wedding in the same church as Imre and Kathleen (not their wedding of course!) I jumped out of my chair when I saw the church again here at RD.
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« Reply #3539 on: September 25, 2020, 12:38:01 AM »

Zazoo, I’ve followed & participated in this thread for years; I truly do not need to search it, as I know its contents. 

The video I recently posted was the only one that is currently available, which shows the family graciously giving speeches to the couple.  From your posts, it seemed that you had seen actual (other) videos and had actual first hand narratives of “snobby” words spoken by Imre’s family to Kathleen’s family.  I would love to see those - I find the situation fascinating.

If you don’t, that’s fine.  We certainly dish here without it.  Your posts on the topic, however, seemed to indicate that there was more out there that you have seen (personally seen) other than inside this thread, which again I don’t need to search and you seem disinclined to do so.  If you have anything else that you can post, I’d be really glad to view it. 

As a US resident who went to a wedding in the same church as Imre and Kathleen (not their wedding of course!) I jumped out of my chair when I saw the church again here at RD.
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Check out my response on the Korn wedding thread.
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