Nicholas II & Family

[Ellie]

Livadia.org! I was involved on that site so very long ago. It convinced me the missing daughter was Tatiana for sure - though now I am not so sure years and years later! Lucy, maybe we knew each other from those time machine days.

[Kristallinchen]

For anyone interested in historic films this is a great film of 2000 covering the events from the Februar revolution in 1917 until the killings in the Ipatiev house:

https://youtu.be/tBe8b3ls3V8 (In Russian with English subs)

The murder scene is terrifying.

[Margaret]

For anyone interested in historic films this is a great film of 2000 covering the events from the Februar revolution in 1917 until the killings in the Ipatiev house:

https://youtu.be/tBe8b3ls3V8 (In Russian with English subs)

The murder scene is terrifying.

I must watch this.  I saw "The Last Czars" on Netflix earlier this year and I found it fascinating.  It will be interesting to see how the events and people are depicted in this film.

[Kristallinchen]

For anyone interested in historic films this is a great film of 2000 covering the events from the Februar revolution in 1917 until the killings in the Ipatiev house:

https://youtu.be/tBe8b3ls3V8 (In Russian with English subs)

The murder scene is terrifying.

I must watch this.  I saw "The Last Czars" on Netflix earlier this year and I found it fascinating.  It will be interesting to see how the events and people are depicted in this film.

It's to my knowledge the most prominent film made by a Russian director about the events. All actors are Russian besides Alexandra Feodorovna (British actress)

[miliosr]

The January 7th, 1917 entry from French Ambassador Maurice Paleologue's diaries:

"While the Imperial train was taking me back to Petrograd through a blinding snowstorm, I reviewed my memories of this audience [with Nicholas II.] The Emperor's words, his silences and reticences, his grave, drawn features and furtive, distant gaze, the impenetrability of his thoughts and the thoroughly vague and enigmatical quality of his personality, confirm me in a notion which has been haunting me for months, the notion that Nicholas II feels himself overwhelmed and dominated by events, that he has lost all faith in his mission or his work, that he has so to speak abdicated inwardly and is now resigned to disaster and ready for the sacrificial altar. Thus his last prikaz to the army, with its proud claim to Poland and Constantinople, can only be what I thought it at the time, a kind of political will, a final announcement of the glorious vision he had imagined for Russia and which he now sees dissolving into thin air."

[miliosr]

The January 17th, 1917 entry from French Ambassador Maurice Paleologue's diaries:

In the evening of the day before yesterday, His Majesty received his new President of the Council, Prince Nicholas Golitzin. [H]e [Golitzin] painted him [Nicholas II] the gloomiest picture of the public state of mind in Russia, particularly Moscow and Petrograd; he did not hide from him that the lives of the sovereigns are in danger and that the Moscow regiments are talking openly of proclaiming another Tsar. The Emperor received his statements with placid indifference:

“The Empress and I know that we are in God’s hands. His will be done!”

At this very time, the Empress was praying at the tomb of Rasputin. Every day she goes there with Madame Virubova, and spends hours absorbed in prayer.

[Lady Alice]

The January 17th, 1917 entry from French Ambassador Maurice Paleologue's diaries:

In the evening of the day before yesterday, His Majesty received his new President of the Council, Prince Nicholas Golitzin. [H]e [Golitzin] painted him [Nicholas II] the gloomiest picture of the public state of mind in Russia, particularly Moscow and Petrograd; he did not hide from him that the lives of the sovereigns are in danger and that the Moscow regiments are talking openly of proclaiming another Tsar. The Emperor received his statements with placid indifference:

“The Empress and I know that we are in God’s hands. His will be done!”

At this very time, the Empress was praying at the tomb of Rasputin. Every day she goes there with Madame Virubova, and spends hours absorbed in prayer.

Today, we'd call that either "being in complete denial," "cognitive dissonance," or "cray cray." I mean, really - who is told their lives AND THEIR CHILDREN'S LIVES -  are in danger and to be so sunk in fatalism to say, "Que será, será." That's the piece that always got to me, his complete passivity in the rising tide.

Well, God rest them. I don't think Russia won in this situation, not at all.

[anastasia beaverhausen]

The January 17th, 1917 entry from French Ambassador Maurice Paleologue's diaries:

In the evening of the day before yesterday, His Majesty received his new President of the Council, Prince Nicholas Golitzin. [H]e [Golitzin] painted him [Nicholas II] the gloomiest picture of the public state of mind in Russia, particularly Moscow and Petrograd; he did not hide from him that the lives of the sovereigns are in danger and that the Moscow regiments are talking openly of proclaiming another Tsar. The Emperor received his statements with placid indifference:

“The Empress and I know that we are in God’s hands. His will be done!”

At this very time, the Empress was praying at the tomb of Rasputin. Every day she goes there with Madame Virubova, and spends hours absorbed in prayer.

Today, we'd call that either "being in complete denial," "cognitive dissonance," or "cray cray." I mean, really - who is told their lives AND THEIR CHILDREN'S LIVES -  are in danger and to be so sunk in fatalism to say, "Que será, será." That's the piece that always got to me, his complete passivity in the rising tide.

Well, God rest them. I don't think Russia won in this situation, not at all.

Could not agree more, Lady Alice. 

The more I read about them the more convinced I am that both Nicholas and Alexandra were weak, stubborn and probably not very bright. And maybe cray cray too.

Your point that Russia is worse off is also probably true.

[Malenkaya]

Project 1917 is a fantastic website that gives snippets from letters, diaries, newspapers, etc. during 1917. It is amazing how apathetic Nicholas and Alexandra were to the events unfolding around them.

[CyrilSebastian]

The court attending the Emperor Nicholas II and Empress Alexandra 1897   
http://www.alamy.com/stoc...las-ii-and-131280938.html

[Konradin]

Project 1917 is a fantastic website that gives snippets from letters, diaries, newspapers, etc. during 1917. It is amazing how apathetic Nicholas and Alexandra were to the events unfolding around them.

Indeed, even already in captivity, Alexandra believed the soviets wanted her husband to sign too the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, she was delusional up to the very cellar regarding their fates. Sadly, their son and daughters paid the ultimate price because of that.  Alix/Alicky/Alexandra is such a complicated historical figure, no matter how much I read, and I still read, about her, it is almost impossible to find good traits that might redeem her, even in today's light. It is specially unsettling when you found evidence that even members of her close family were worried of her inability to the role she was going to take by marriage, i.e. Queen Victoria the first, and man, she was not one to know much about empathy and so but she also was a very good judge of her grandchildren, and greatgrandchildren, no so much of her children whom she didn't care much but for Arthur and Beatrice, Victoria was her therapist mostly. So no, I don't like this woman nor I think I will ever change my mind.

[miliosr]

Regarding the relative personalities of Nicholas and Alexandra, Maurice Paleologue made two entries in his diaries during the fall of 1916 based on a conversation he had with the Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna (the Elder):

October 27, 1916

Paleologue: "Is the explanation of your anxiety that you have lost confidence in the Emperor?"

Taken aback by the suddenness of my question, she [Marie Pavlovna] fixed a haggard eye upon me for a moment. The she answered in a low tone:

"The Emperor? I shall always believe in him. But there's the Empress as well. I know both of them well. The worse things get, the greater will be Alexandra Feodorovna's influence because her will is active, aggressive and restless. His will, on the other hand, is merely negative. When he ceases to believe in himself and thinks God has abandoned him, he does not try to assert himself but merely wraps himself up in a dull and resigned obstinacy."

October 28, 1916

I have been thinking over my talk with the Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna yesterday.

The fact is that, making allowances for her mystical aberrations, the Empress is a stronger character than the Emperor, her will is more tenacious, her mind more active, her virtues more positive and her whole spirit more militant and regal. Her idea of saving tsarism by bringing it back to the traditions of theocratic absolutism is madness but the proud obstinacy she displays in not without an element of grandeur. The role she has assumed in affairs of state is disastrous but she certainly plays it like a tsarina.

[Konradin]

Regarding the relative personalities of Nicholas and Alexandra, Maurice Paleologue made two entries in his diaries during the fall of 1916 based on a conversation he had with the Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna (the Elder):

October 27, 1916

Paleologue: "Is the explanation of your anxiety that you have lost confidence in the Emperor?"

Taken aback by the suddenness of my question, she [Marie Pavlovna] fixed a haggard eye upon me for a moment. The she answered in a low tone:

"The Emperor? I shall always believe in him. But there's the Empress as well. I know both of them well. The worse things get, the greater will be Alexandra Feodorovna's influence because her will is active, aggressive and restless. His will, on the other hand, is merely negative. When he ceases to believe in himself and thinks God has abandoned him, he does not try to assert himself but merely wraps himself up in a dull and resigned obstinacy."

October 28, 1916

I have been thinking over my talk with the Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna yesterday.

The fact is that, making allowances for her mystical aberrations, the Empress is a stronger character than the Emperor, her will is more tenacious, her mind more active, her virtues more positive and her whole spirit more militant and regal. Her idea of saving tsarism by bringing it back to the traditions of theocratic absolutism is madness but the proud obstinacy she displays in not without an element of grandeur. The role she has assumed in affairs of state is disastrous but she certainly plays it like a tsarina.

Nicholas II first speech as czar, before their marriage was outdated and reactionary, it's well known that one of the GDchesses looked for his teacher and basically asked for and explanation, how did he allow that speech to be read!? The teacher's answer was that he was against it, and adviced for a new one but the future czarevna basically helped the czar to write it.
- HER!? -she said- What does she know about Russia!?
- Nothing, but she thinks she knows it all.

Of course, I'm not going to blame everything on her, Nicholas was both uncertain and unprepared, Alexander III believed, wrongly, that he would have years to have him ready but that was not the case. On top of that, add the poor education he received, his mother was jealous of her bond and other educated people, which she was not, and changed his teachers before he could have been attached to any of them.

[Malenkaya]

I was watching a documentary on Karl I of Austria recently and it struck me how similar Karl and Zita were to Nicholas and Alexandra. Both were ill prepared for their roles of massive empires. Both had an incredible amount of hubris over their thrones. I could go on. Had Karl and Zita had not tried to regain the throne of Hungary it's quite possible they wouldn't have been exiled to Madeira and Karl wouldn't have died so young.

And both have cult followings, albeit Nicholas and Alexandra have a much larger cult following.

I think there's some sympathy to be had for Alexandra in that she was thrust into her role. She didn't have the adjustment period that previous consorts had the luxury of. That's pretty much where my sympathy starts to end.

That being said very few of the Romanovs of that period are sympathetic characters. I think it's the fact so many were killed by the Bolsheviks that people tend to view them in a different light than they would the Hapsburgs or Prussians.

[Konradin]

I was watching a documentary on Karl I of Austria recently and it struck me how similar Karl and Zita were to Nicholas and Alexandra. Both were ill prepared for their roles of massive empires. Both had an incredible amount of hubris over their thrones. I could go on. Had Karl and Zita had not tried to regain the throne of Hungary it's quite possible they wouldn't have been exiled to Madeira and Karl wouldn't have died so young.

And both have cult followings, albeit Nicholas and Alexandra have a much larger cult following.

I think there's some sympathy to be had for Alexandra in that she was thrust into her role. She didn't have the adjustment period that previous consorts had the luxury of. That's pretty much where my sympathy starts to end.

That being said very few of the Romanovs of that period are sympathetic characters. I think it's the fact so many were killed by the Bolsheviks that people tend to view them in a different light than they would the Hapsburgs or Prussians.

I disagree regarding Karl and Zitta, he really tried but the WWI was going on and his margin to do any change whatsoever was scarce, the empire was in tatters and unlike the Romanovs, they could see this was happening, and took measures. Never was a moment where their lives was in actual danger, of course, deposed and all but no prison or anything.
Yes, you are right, they tried, and could have tried harder in Hungary but in the end, Karl was a good person and didn't want to risk the Hungarians to a civil war, same goes for his family. Zita behaved with a lot of dignity as an exiled empress, I wonder how will that played for Alexandra... not good, I guess giving her "airs".