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Author Topic: Nicholas II & Family  (Read 28489 times)
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Bunnyette

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« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2019, 07:08:17 PM »

I believe none of them would have married, or if they did, when they were older and had to settle with Russian men. They would not let them go, at all, I doubt.

I don't think that they wanted to marry foreign princes either. Olga and Tatiana repeatedly stated themselves that they wanted to remain in Russia.

If the monarchy and the family would've survived the revolution I also believe that marriage laws and customs would've changed.

Also wondering if that was the influence of Alix speaking…..
If I am correct, there have been (foreign) royal and noble suitors for Olga and Tatiana.

I wonder if Alix’ issues prevented her from seeing the danger and sending her daughters to The Crimea to their grandmother- the Family there was able to get out...why Nicholas left Alix in charge while he went to the front , I don’t know when one of his brothers or even his Mother would have done much better.  But I guess Rasputin had him in his evil clutches.  All this family drama cause their deaths IMO.
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Kristallinchen

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« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2019, 11:12:54 PM »

I believe none of them would have married, or if they did, when they were older and had to settle with Russian men. They would not let them go, at all, I doubt.

I don't think that they wanted to marry foreign princes either. Olga and Tatiana repeatedly stated themselves that they wanted to remain in Russia.

If the monarchy and the family would've survived the revolution I also believe that marriage laws and customs would've changed.

Also wondering if that was the influence of Alix speaking…..
If I am correct, there have been (foreign) royal and noble suitors for Olga and Tatiana.

I wonder if Alix’ issues prevented her from seeing the danger and sending her daughters to The Crimea to their grandmother- the Family there was able to get out...why Nicholas left Alix in charge while he went to the front , I don’t know when one of his brothers or even his Mother would have done much better.  But I guess Rasputin had him in his evil clutches.  All this family drama cause their deaths IMO.

Michail? Please no. He was even more of a dreamer than his brother.

Maria Feodorovna was also not really experienced as a ruler, true surely better than Alix, but I don't think she would've accepted. Well Nikolai lived Alix and in his eyes she could do no wrong...from a personal point that's very understandable. Also Alix was considered the powerful one of the marriage. During the retreating years of WW1 Nikolai was often let down and Alix told him how important it was to show strength, not give in to the enemies, not to make any reforms (when in fact it would've been better to do so) and so on...basically she was telling him what he wanted to hear.

What concerns the reign issue...in fact there were no Romanovs, who where generally well liked by the public, only Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich had a good stand within the military, which is why Nikolai II. made another big mistake by forcing him to resign and taking the commando of the military forces himself.
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Kristallinchen

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« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2019, 11:14:56 PM »

Do you think that if a member of the Imperial Family such as Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolaevich (1856-1929) had been able to take refuge in the United States, the family of Nicholas II might have been able to go to the United States?

No. Nikolai II never made any serious attempt to flee the country, yet alone to settle in the US. And concerning the political rift of the Soviet Union and the United States at this time it also wouldn't have been in the best interest of the latter country to let the former ex-Tsar stay their.

A likely choice for a country to live after the abdication would've been the UK and even more so France.
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Principessa

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« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2019, 01:02:24 PM »

Do you think that if a member of the Imperial Family such as Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolaevich (1856-1929) had been able to take refuge in the United States, the family of Nicholas II might have been able to go to the United States?

No. Nikolai II never made any serious attempt to flee the country, yet alone to settle in the US. And concerning the political rift of the Soviet Union and the United States at this time it also wouldn't have been in the best interest of the latter country to let the former ex-Tsar stay their.

A likely choice for a country to live after the abdication would've been the UK and even more so France.

Many of his relatives, before, during and after the revolution ended up in France.

After staying in Denmark and UK Nikolai II's sister Olga (and her 2nd husband Nikolai Kulikovsky) found a home in Canada. His other sister, Xenia, spend her later years in the UK.
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CyrilSebastian

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« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2019, 03:38:05 AM »

Nicholas with his and Alexandra's Uncle Bertie   
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/426575395955022092
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CyrilSebastian

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« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2019, 03:35:07 AM »

Tsar Nicholas II did not always follow his mother's recommendations. When she asked as a favor the loan of one million roubles from the State Bank to a needy Princess, Nicholas lectured her sternly. He told his mother the request was impossible.
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Principessa

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« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2019, 04:27:53 PM »

Tsar Nicholas II did not always follow his mother's recommendations. When she asked as a favor the loan of one million roubles from the State Bank to a needy Princess, Nicholas lectured her sternly. He told his mother the request was impossible.

Wasn't his mother also opposed to Alix?
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Kristallinchen

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« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2019, 04:54:54 PM »

Tsar Nicholas II did not always follow his mother's recommendations. When she asked as a favor the loan of one million roubles from the State Bank to a needy Princess, Nicholas lectured her sternly. He told his mother the request was impossible.

Wasn't his mother also opposed to Alix?

She certainly wanted another, best non-German and more grander Princesse for her son. Helene of France was her ideal candidate.

MF and AF were never really friends, but in the early years of Nikolai and Alix' marriage they managed a kind of agreement. Their personalities were just completely different and of course it didn't help that MF f.e. didn't want to move out of the palace or rejected to turn over the crown jewels to her daughter in law after her husbands death.
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miliosr

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« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2019, 01:59:46 PM »

Marie Feodorovna's (Marie F.) opposition to Alexandra as a wife for Nicholas had multiple origins. As Kristallinchen notes, Marie F. was hoping for a more prestigious wife for Nicholas than a princess from a "minor" Grand Duchy like that of Alexandra's native Hesse. There was also the matter of Alexandra being a granddaughter of Queen Victoria, who was by no means well liked by the Russian Imperial Family in general and Marie F.'s husband, Alexander III, in particular.

But Marie F.'s biggest objection had to do with Alexandra's personality. As I once wrote on another forum, Marie F. thought that Alexandra's shyness, inability to make conversation easily and natural introspection would make a poor fit for the Russian Imperial Court, which was very social. Marie F. also worried that Alexandra would isolate herself (and Nicholas) from the rest of the world. (History proved Marie F. right on all of those points.)

As matters played out, Marie F.'s objections to the marriage became moot once it became clear that Alexander III's health was entering into steep decline. At that point, all Nicholas would have had to do was wait until his father's death. Then he would have been Tsar and he could have overriden his mother's objections and married Alexandra. So Marie F. and Alexander III had no other choice but to give their blessing to the marriage.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 02:10:27 PM by miliosr » Logged
Malenkaya

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« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2019, 06:13:01 AM »

Princess Hélène of Orléans was moot anyway. Her father was deeply opposed to her converting. She initially wanted to marry Prince Eddy. She was willing to convert to marry him but her father was opposed and the Pope wouldn't provide a dispensation for conversion due to her father's opposition.
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miliosr

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« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2019, 01:56:39 AM »

One of the best books about the collapse of the Romanov dynasty is Maurice Paleologue's An Ambassador's Memoirs. Paleologue was the French Ambassador to the Imperial Russian Court during World War I and he kept a diary detailing the slow motion implosion of the dynasty. Regarding the Empress Alexandra, he made the following entry on January 7, 1915 about her German vs. English origins:

"Alexandra Feodorovna is German neither in mind nor spirit and has never been so. Of course, she is a German by birth, at any rate on the paternal side, as her father was Louis IV, Grand Duke of Hesse and the Rhine. But she is English through her mother, Princess Alice, a daughter of Queen Victoria. In 1878, at the age of six, she lost her mother and thenceforward resided habitually at the court of England. Her bringing-up, education and mental and moral development were thus quite English. She is still English in her outward appearance, her deportment, a certain strain of inflexibility and Puritanism, the uncompromising and militant austerity of her conscience and, last but not least, in many of her personal habits. That is all that is left of her western origins."

I highly recommend Paleologue's diaries. They are extremely novelistic and suspenseful even thought the reader knows how it's all going to end.
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Carreen

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« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2019, 01:52:36 PM »

Alexandra's sister Ella seemed to have been very popular not only in court circles so it can't have been only her German background. She was shy and awkward, made a bad first impression and never recovered from that because she entered a cycle of pregnancies and health problems that turned her into a recluse. Whenever I read a biography about her I ask myself: who could have helped her? shouldn't her mother in law have made a bigger effort? After all, Alexandra was the daughter of Princess Alice, and Maria Fedorovna's sister Alix (Princess of Wales) is said to have been close to her. Alix of Wales was even Alexandra's godmother (she was baptized Alix, too, and changed that to Alexandra only when she converted). In a way, Maria F should have been like an aunt to her, could have become a second mother. What a pity that didn't work out.

It's puzzling that Alexandra idealized the Russian peasants and simple people and believed to be loved by them but in reality they hated her just as much as the court circles and aristocracy hated her. Only those very close to her loved her. I find her character very interesting because she was loved strongly by few and hated by so many. Nobody seems to have been neutral about her.

Another thing is that Alexandra's horizon was very narrow and her decisions in the last years, when she had political influence, were absolutely terrible. She never seems to have looked back and asked herself what she did wrong, well, maybe she did so in her heart. But all accounts show that she saw herself as innocent victims. Which her servants and children certainly were.

I've read many books about her and her family and it's always a terribly sad story for so many people. Her character was only factor in the tragedy and I don't believe a popular tsaritsa could have held up the downfall but she definitely contributed. Even moderate politicians felt that both of them were unable to fill their positions as they should. And when Lenin returned to Russia, their fate was sealed.

The worst is the betrayal by her British cousin. Could he have saved them? We'll never know but he didn't even try.

Anyway, neither Alexandra nor her husband really tried to understand the reasons for the political unrest in their country, or to react in any other way than by suppressing criticism.
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Ellie

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« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2019, 02:23:37 AM »

Alix Pss of Wales was Alix as a nickname - she was baptised Alexandra Caroline Louise Marie something something that I do not recall.

I do think no matter what Alix was entirely unsuited for her position as was her husband. Nicholas having a supportive wife who understood the social obligations an Empress would need to involve herself in and who was not so self-centered and neurotic would have helped in some way. She completely abandoned any pretense of doing her job as it was and isolated herself, and her family, from his family and inevitably his people.

I believe Maria and his sister Ksenia did try to connect with her and be involved but Alexandra completely shut them all out in favor of the two of them creating their little world. It is not hard to see his family hurt and angered by this behavior because it was Alexandra doing it, cutting him off from them so she would be a sole influence.
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miliosr

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« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2019, 02:14:12 AM »

Whenever I read a biography about her I ask myself: who could have helped her? shouldn't her mother in law have made a bigger effort? After all, Alexandra was the daughter of Princess Alice, and Maria Fedorovna's sister Alix (Princess of Wales) is said to have been close to her. Alix of Wales was even Alexandra's godmother (she was baptized Alix, too, and changed that to Alexandra only when she converted). In a way, Maria F should have been like an aunt to her, could have become a second mother. What a pity that didn't work out.
I think the two women did try to find some common ground at the beginning of Nicholas' reign. But, as various people (including Marie F.'s daughter, Grand Duchess Olga, and Alexandra's lady-in-waiting, Baroness Buxhoeveden) pointed out after the Revolution, the two empresses were so dissimilar in every respect that it was impossible for them to build any kind of working relationship.

I do think no matter what Alix was entirely unsuited for her position as was her husband.
I agree. While Marie F. made some mistakes with Alexandra (most notably insisting on the precedence she was due by house law), those mistakes weren't the determining factor. Alexandra's personality was completely unsuited for the role of Tsarina of Russia. Unfortunately, the more Alexandra felt at loggerheads with the Russian court and with the Russian people more generally, the more she isolated herself and took Nicholas with her. The result was that they went off to live in a fantasy world while the forces of revolution began to gain strength.
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« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2019, 10:15:25 AM »

Alix Pss of Wales was Alix as a nickname - she was baptised Alexandra Caroline Louise Marie something something that I do not recall.

I do think no matter what Alix was entirely unsuited for her position as was her husband. Nicholas having a supportive wife who understood the social obligations an Empress would need to involve herself in and who was not so self-centered and neurotic would have helped in some way. She completely abandoned any pretense of doing her job as it was and isolated herself, and her family, from his family and inevitably his people.

I believe Maria and his sister Ksenia did try to connect with her and be involved but Alexandra completely shut them all out in favor of the two of them creating their little world. It is not hard to see his family hurt and angered by this behavior because it was Alexandra doing it, cutting him off from them so she would be a sole influence.

Alexandra Caroline Marie Charlotte Louise Julia. But in family circles, she went by Alix, the same way that Dagmar went by Minnie. Smiley
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