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miliosr

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« Reply #135 on: February 22, 2020, 02:54:00 PM »

Was Tsarina Alexandra socially inactive?     
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUXECaR0_qM
I would say 'Yes'.

From a letter Marie Feodorovna wrote to her father, the King of Denmark, dated March 7/19, 1897:

"They [Nicholas and Alexandra] are very pleased at spending the winter at Tsarskoe, where dear Nicky does, indeed, have a bit more freedom and can be outside in the good air more than here in the city. But it does have its less positive sides in that she [Alexandra] hardly sees any people, and that they are living far too much by themselves and do not even see the poor ladies and gentlemen of their entourage who live there. Well, that will probably come with time, we must hope."

Marie Feodorovna wrote this in 1897 - more than 20 years before the Revolution. So, by 1897, it was already noticeable to the Dowager Empress that Alexandra was retreating into a nether world and taking Nicholas with her.
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CyrilSebastian

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« Reply #136 on: February 26, 2020, 10:20:18 PM »

The Imperial Visit to Cowes     
Nicholas II and Alexandra visited Nicky's uncle Edward VII of England in 1909.     
They received several deputations. They received a deputation from London, led by the Lord Mayor who gave Their Majesties a magnificent gold coffret. The Tsar had been named as honorary member of the Royal Yacht Club.
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« Reply #137 on: February 27, 2020, 02:21:08 PM »

Alexandra was never comfortable with crowds, she was shy so she reacted to that stage panic by developing red spots on her face, her lips got tighten and she got awkward, thus whomever was addressing her could feel her displeasure at the whole scene. Nothing endearing, Russia suited her perfectly for the czarinas had contact with the masses and their peoples but it was close to nothing.

Had, let's say, her marriage to the Duke of Avondale being pushed, and him got to be king, she would have encountered the same issues in the UK, where a queen was expected to more, and be seen.

Funny, especially given that neither Irene, a minor Prussian princess, daughter in law of the German Kaiser, Victoria Albert, a wife to a minor German prince from Hesse, and GD "Ella", none of them had these problems with people and they were all raised the same. Her personality got her in troubles from a very early age.
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« Reply #138 on: February 27, 2020, 03:40:13 PM »

She probably never really got over the shock of losing first her brother Frittie, then her mother emotionally because of her mourning, and then the catastrophe of losing her mother and sister. It left a deep imprint on her, and also on her brother Ernie. I read some time ago Ernie's memories of the last day with little Frittie, running after him: wait for me, Ernie, wait!, and he had fun running faster. A day later, Frittie was dead, and Ernie heard his voice for the rest of his life. I was in tears when I read this. These children underwent real trauma.

Interesting how in Darmstadt family, like in the Romanvo family later, there was a "big pair" and a "little pair". Victoria and Ella were the big pair. All four sisters went for real love, there was a core of strength in all of them.

Victoria as the eldest took over the maternal role. She was also very intelligent, sharp and self confident. Ella wore her beauty like a crown, also very self confident.

The younger pair was made of gentler stuff than the big sisters. Irene was amiable and loving, very much the invisible force of kindness within the family. And Alix was very beautiful, too, but her beauty didn't make her stronger, it made her vulnerable. An insecure beauty is the ideal object for others to take down. Another factor is probably that she was not very clever. Had she married someone "second in line" like Irene did, she would probably have got on very well. But being exposed on such a huge stage - living in a world of dreams - so easily injured and insulted - and showing these feelings to the world so openly.... she was the exact opposite of what an empress should be.

It's such a tragic story. It must have broken her siblings' hearts.

When I think of the tragedy of Ekaterinburg, I always wonder why the servants and doctor were not sainted, too. They could have left the famliy and saved themselves, their choice to be with them until the end is deserving of the highest respect. Why the Orthodox Church sainted only the family but not the humble and loyal servants I'll never understand. Nicky and Alix were able of inspiring great loyalty and love.
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CyrilSebastian

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« Reply #139 on: February 27, 2020, 09:55:24 PM »

Do you think Tsarina Alexandra could have been a little more at ease with the planning of the court balls if her mother-in-law Empress Marie Feodorovna and Nicholas' aunt Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna (Grand Duchess Vladimir) had helped her with the planning?
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« Reply #140 on: February 27, 2020, 10:12:04 PM »

One way or another I expect Alix would leave it (all) to them in that case, just as easy and such
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« Reply #141 on: February 27, 2020, 10:19:19 PM »

I think it's fair to say that Alexandra hated society balls and other receptions at Court.  Alexandra had the fixed idea (probably not totally wrong, but extreme) that all of Russian aristocracy was corrupt and immoral, so she didn't want to deal with them.  Thus entertainments provided by the Tsar became fewer & fewer.  Even if Maria Fedorovna or Maria Pavlovna offered to help, she would probably have refused it.
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CyrilSebastian

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« Reply #142 on: February 28, 2020, 09:59:37 PM »

I think it's fair to say that Alexandra hated society balls and other receptions at Court.  Alexandra had the fixed idea (probably not totally wrong, but extreme) that all of Russian aristocracy was corrupt and immoral, so she didn't want to deal with them.  Thus entertainments provided by the Tsar became fewer & fewer.  Even if Maria Fedorovna or Maria Pavlovna offered to help, she would probably have refused it.
     
 
It would have been sad if Tsarina Alexandra refused the help. Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna was known for her fancy balls.
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Kristallinchen

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« Reply #143 on: February 29, 2020, 12:11:47 PM »

I think it's fair to say that Alexandra hated society balls and other receptions at Court.  Alexandra had the fixed idea (probably not totally wrong, but extreme) that all of Russian aristocracy was corrupt and immoral, so she didn't want to deal with them.  Thus entertainments provided by the Tsar became fewer & fewer.  Even if Maria Fedorovna or Maria Pavlovna offered to help, she would probably have refused it.
     
 
It would have been sad if Tsarina Alexandra refused the help. Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna was known for her fancy balls.

Honestly it wasn't about the fancy balls.

Alix was very shy and distrusting those around her she was probably right (just look at some of Nikolai's uncles f.e.)

Russian society was expecting it's imperial family to shine and show of their clothes. I've to disagree with Konradin. It's not like she had it easier in Russia. In Russia she had to follow the footsteps of her overshadowing mil Maria Feodorovna (who btw was not the Saint she's portrayed here by some. She for example refused to end over the crown jewels or move out of the palace as was expected by the dowager empress when A III died. Someone like Alix certainly didn't regain trust any trust in her mil here).

I agree that the death of her mother and little sister left a huge impact on her. I doubt about Frittie. She was only about a year after all and most likely didn't remember.

Also in the first years she did try, but she could never compete to MF, MP or even her own sister, Ella.

Curiously if Alix would've lived during the times of Peter the Great or before she would've been totally fine. Ladies back then at court were hidden away, doing needlework and bearing children.

Something that honestly Alix failed at first and foremost, because daughter were worth nothing at the time. It didn't help either that her sil alone got seven boys.

I can't fault her for the Rasputin episode. She was a mother after all and from the pow she did what she thought was right for her son.

Alix also had the problem of having very high moral standards which could be called bigott. She was very unforgiving too, which of course didn't suit well for a Tsarina. She and Nikolai had no talent in politics, also she did believe she had.

Alix had the misfortune of having the false husband at the false time. Nikolai though wanting to be a good Tsar (I really believe he and Alix had honest intentions) didn't see the writing on the wall and the changing of the times.

From all I've read I don't think Ekaterinburg could've been avoided. Also about the comparison with L XVI. and MA: There were several, ideas, plans and letter to relatives (like MAs Maria Karolina of Naples) regarding escape plans.

On the contrary not one single plan is own about N and A from their side. I'm not talking about the plans by others to save them or their wish to go to England. They didn't force anything. Nikolai simply accepted his fate just like Hiob did.

On a side note: Alix was a very well trained nurse and liked by those she nursed, the simple Russian soldiers. Though of course those were not the ones deciding about her fate.
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anastasia beaverhausen

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« Reply #144 on: February 29, 2020, 05:29:32 PM »

I think it's fair to say that Alexandra hated society balls and other receptions at Court.  Alexandra had the fixed idea (probably not totally wrong, but extreme) that all of Russian aristocracy was corrupt and immoral, so she didn't want to deal with them.  Thus entertainments provided by the Tsar became fewer & fewer.  Even if Maria Fedorovna or Maria Pavlovna offered to help, she would probably have refused it.
     
 
It would have been sad if Tsarina Alexandra refused the help. Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna was known for her fancy balls.

Honestly it wasn't about the fancy balls.

Alix was very shy and distrusting those around her she was probably right (just look at some of Nikolai's uncles f.e.)

Russian society was expecting it's imperial family to shine and show of their clothes. I've to disagree with Konradin. It's not like she had it easier in Russia. In Russia she had to follow the footsteps of her overshadowing mil Maria Feodorovna (who btw was not the Saint she's portrayed here by some. She for example refused to end over the crown jewels or move out of the palace as was expected by the dowager empress when A III died. Someone like Alix certainly didn't regain trust any trust in her mil here).

I agree that the death of her mother and little sister left a huge impact on her. I doubt about Frittie. She was only about a year after all and most likely didn't remember.

Also in the first years she did try, but she could never compete to MF, MP or even her own sister, Ella.

Curiously if Alix would've lived during the times of Peter the Great or before she would've been totally fine. Ladies back then at court were hidden away, doing needlework and bearing children.

Something that honestly Alix failed at first and foremost, because daughter were worth nothing at the time. It didn't help either that her sil alone got seven boys.

I can't fault her for the Rasputin episode. She was a mother after all and from the pow she did what she thought was right for her son.

Alix also had the problem of having very high moral standards which could be called bigott. She was very unforgiving too, which of course didn't suit well for a Tsarina. She and Nikolai had no talent in politics, also she did believe she had.

Alix had the misfortune of having the false husband at the false time. Nikolai though wanting to be a good Tsar (I really believe he and Alix had honest intentions) didn't see the writing on the wall and the changing of the times.

From all I've read I don't think Ekaterinburg could've been avoided. Also about the comparison with L XVI. and MA: There were several, ideas, plans and letter to relatives (like MAs Maria Karolina of Naples) regarding escape plans.

On the contrary not one single plan is own about N and A from their side. I'm not talking about the plans by others to save them or their wish to go to England. They didn't force anything. Nikolai simply accepted his fate just like Hiob did.

On a side note: Alix was a very well trained nurse and liked by those she nursed, the simple Russian soldiers. Though of course those were not the ones deciding about her fate.


Good post K!  Star

I agree with you about Ekaterinburg. What I cannot imagine or forgive is the danger they put their children in.   It’s one thing to face uncertain times for yourself, but I think N and A had enough warning to ship their son and daughters to safety.

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Kristallinchen

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« Reply #145 on: February 29, 2020, 06:33:22 PM »

I think it's fair to say that Alexandra hated society balls and other receptions at Court.  Alexandra had the fixed idea (probably not totally wrong, but extreme) that all of Russian aristocracy was corrupt and immoral, so she didn't want to deal with them.  Thus entertainments provided by the Tsar became fewer & fewer.  Even if Maria Fedorovna or Maria Pavlovna offered to help, she would probably have refused it.
   
 
It would have been sad if Tsarina Alexandra refused the help. Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna was known for her fancy balls.

Honestly it wasn't about the fancy balls.

Alix was very shy and distrusting those around her she was probably right (just look at some of Nikolai's uncles f.e.)

Russian society was expecting it's imperial family to shine and show of their clothes. I've to disagree with Konradin. It's not like she had it easier in Russia. In Russia she had to follow the footsteps of her overshadowing mil Maria Feodorovna (who btw was not the Saint she's portrayed here by some. She for example refused to end over the crown jewels or move out of the palace as was expected by the dowager empress when A III died. Someone like Alix certainly didn't regain trust any trust in her mil here).

I agree that the death of her mother and little sister left a huge impact on her. I doubt about Frittie. She was only about a year after all and most likely didn't remember.

Also in the first years she did try, but she could never compete to MF, MP or even her own sister, Ella.

Curiously if Alix would've lived during the times of Peter the Great or before she would've been totally fine. Ladies back then at court were hidden away, doing needlework and bearing children.

Something that honestly Alix failed at first and foremost, because daughter were worth nothing at the time. It didn't help either that her sil alone got seven boys.

I can't fault her for the Rasputin episode. She was a mother after all and from the pow she did what she thought was right for her son.

Alix also had the problem of having very high moral standards which could be called bigott. She was very unforgiving too, which of course didn't suit well for a Tsarina. She and Nikolai had no talent in politics, also she did believe she had.

Alix had the misfortune of having the false husband at the false time. Nikolai though wanting to be a good Tsar (I really believe he and Alix had honest intentions) didn't see the writing on the wall and the changing of the times.

From all I've read I don't think Ekaterinburg could've been avoided. Also about the comparison with L XVI. and MA: There were several, ideas, plans and letter to relatives (like MAs Maria Karolina of Naples) regarding escape plans.

On the contrary not one single plan is own about N and A from their side. I'm not talking about the plans by others to save them or their wish to go to England. They didn't force anything. Nikolai simply accepted his fate just like Hiob did.

On a side note: Alix was a very well trained nurse and liked by those she nursed, the simple Russian soldiers. Though of course those were not the ones deciding about her fate.


Good post K!  Star

I agree with you about Ekaterinburg. What I cannot imagine or forgive is the danger they put their children in.   It’s one thing to face uncertain times for yourself, but I think N and A had enough warning to ship their son and daughters to safety.



This I've to disagree about. While Nikolai and Alix were sometimes humiliated by some soldiers, while still living in the Alexander Palace.

In Tobolsk they had to make their own beds and didn't have a palace anymore to live in. But aside from this they were fine. Remember it was war time. Most people were happy about being alive and being provided with food.

They could go to church and had close servants with them. Nikolai enjoyed the time with this children. He certainly didn't get much of it, while the ranging war years.

Alix even said that she loved being close to Rasputin (he was from Siberia after all). People in Tobolsk were not like those in St. Petersburg or Moscow. War usually doesn't effect (small) towns as much as it does big cities (it was the same with the French revolution, while people in Paris were throwing stones, the countryside was still worshipping the king).

All in all there was nothing really worrying.

Then came Ekaterinburg. A house they couldn't leave, soldiers writing obscene paintings on the walls. Remember these were the Communists, not those imperial soldiers back in the Alexander Palace.

By the time N and A probably realized in what danger they were, it was to late. That is, if they ever did anyway.

For all this I think they also didn't do (more) to save their children. Up until E they never thought of being in any real danger.
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« Reply #146 on: March 02, 2020, 11:06:03 AM »

Plus, it is history that decides if you were a good and caring parent!
King George and the QueenMum refused to evacuate the young princesses to the much safer country side, with the heroic statement that the girls could not leave without QueenMum and she could never leave the king.
That played out well, but I imagine that had they been injured or harmed in London, history might have condemned this action.
Sending children away also was not like putting them on a plane and having someone meet them at the destination airport.
Europe was at war and any trip from where-ever the family was would have been a very long journey thru very desperate areas and time.
Not entirely sure I would have sent my children on such a journey, having to trust people to keep them safe, having no control and no information and as said before actually not quite believing that we were with our back against the wall.
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« Reply #147 on: March 03, 2020, 03:10:58 AM »

Except that the Queen Mum and George VI did move the girls to a safer place - not out of the UK but to the countryside - initially to Balmoral and then permanently to Windsor.

The Russian children could only have really been moved to safety in the early days of the revolution but they were ill and so the doctors advised them to stay and by the time they had recovered they were under house arrest and never got another chance. Had they been at the Crimea, for their winter break, they may very well have escaped with some of the others (then again those others mightn't have been able to escape if the Tsar's children were with them.)
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« Reply #148 on: March 03, 2020, 03:42:42 AM »

They never thought they were in danger - and there were plenty of opportunities to send the children, at least their daughters, away to her sister Victoria. Alix refused. Even Nicholas considered it could have been prudent, but she had infantalised her daughters so much 'the little girlies' would never leave. Olga Nikolaevna had wanted to accept Aunt Victoria's offer, when she had heard about it.
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« Reply #149 on: March 03, 2020, 07:57:49 PM »

They never thought they were in danger - and there were plenty of opportunities to send the children, at least their daughters, away to her sister Victoria. Alix refused. Even Nicholas considered it could have been prudent, but she had infantalised her daughters so much 'the little girlies' would never leave. Olga Nikolaevna had wanted to accept Aunt Victoria's offer, when she had heard about it.

This is also my understanding of that situation Ellie.

And there was also precedent in Russia for killing royals, which is why Queen Victoria wasn’t thrilled about Alix marrying in.
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