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Poll
Question: Which monarchy would you like to see restored and why?
House of Romanov-Russia - 14 (29.2%)
House of Savoy-Italy - 2 (4.2%)
House of Bourbon-France - 4 (8.3%)
House of Hohernzollern-Germany - 8 (16.7%)
House of Glucksborg-Greek Branch - 7 (14.6%)
House of Hapsburg-Austria - 13 (27.1%)
Total Voters: 48

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Author Topic: Which abolished monarchy would you like to see restored?  (Read 23673 times)
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Princess MS

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« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2022, 02:38:35 PM »

The fact that of the 20 full democracies in the world 9 are constitutional monarchies would be a good reason, including the most democratic country - Norway, and 2nd most democratic - New Zealand.

Other full democracies that are monarchies - in order and their ranking, Sweden 4th, Denmark 6th, Australia 9th, The Netherlands 11th, Canada 12th, Japan 17th and the UK 18th.

Spain isn't classed as a full democracy but comes in 24th ahead of so-called democracies such as the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index



I disagree. Full democracies can't have their Head of State predetermined by birth.  That's not democracy independently of what international body determines what a "full democracy" is or means.

There has always been a case for parliamentary monarchies in countries where there is separation of powers as a monarch is supposed to be independent from the political power giving stability to all the institutions within the country. 

Unfortunately this is not what's happening right now in all monarchies in Europe.  Whether is Spain, Britain, Sweeden, Netherlands, Luxemburg etc there are serious questions about their lack of transparency, money in offshore accounts and lack of independent audits, lobbyists getting recognisition for money paid to birthday parties, international proyects and on and on.  There is also a lack of transparency how much money the monarchies are actually costing tax payers as published government funding never includes personal security for each royal family member which goes into dozen of millions every year.  This without counting the palaces, the personel servicing the palaces and whatever else it's never included in the "published funding".

I've been a strong supporter of parliamentary monarchies all my life but with every scandal I read, and there are scandals right left and centre in all of them, the less value they have in the XXI century.



The index has been the determinant of democracy standard for decades now and it doesn't even include the Head of State in the index but things that actually matter - like the way the government is elected and the rights of the people as a determinant of whether a country is a democracy or not.

Given that fact, that by this index, only 20 countries are full democracies and that the number of even flawed democracies are decreasing it seem churlish to worry about one minor part of the process when so much more determines what constitutes a democracy.

Given the choice between a US style 'democracy' or the Australian constitutional form - with the greater freedoms and more open transparency of elections we have over the US I will happily live in a constitutional monarchy over any republic I have seen.

Oh what a surprise.... so you think the chicken lot in government now is something to celebrate 🎉
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« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2022, 02:45:42 PM »

The fact that of the 20 full democracies in the world 9 are constitutional monarchies would be a good reason, including the most democratic country - Norway, and 2nd most democratic - New Zealand.

Other full democracies that are monarchies - in order and their ranking, Sweden 4th, Denmark 6th, Australia 9th, The Netherlands 11th, Canada 12th, Japan 17th and the UK 18th.

Spain isn't classed as a full democracy but comes in 24th ahead of so-called democracies such as the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index



I disagree. Full democracies can't have their Head of State predetermined by birth.  That's not democracy independently of what international body determines what a "full democracy" is or means.

There has always been a case for parliamentary monarchies in countries where there is separation of powers as a monarch is supposed to be independent from the political power giving stability to all the institutions within the country.  

Unfortunately this is not what's happening right now in all monarchies in Europe.  Whether is Spain, Britain, Sweeden, Netherlands, Luxemburg etc there are serious questions about their lack of transparency, money in offshore accounts and lack of independent audits, lobbyists getting recognisition for money paid to birthday parties, international proyects and on and on.  There is also a lack of transparency how much money the monarchies are actually costing tax payers as published government funding never includes personal security for each royal family member which goes into dozen of millions every year.  This without counting the palaces, the personel servicing the palaces and whatever else it's never included in the "published funding".

I've been a strong supporter of parliamentary monarchies all my life but with every scandal I read, and there are scandals right left and centre in all of them, the less value they have in the XXI century.


 Star for Isabel, love your post - it's such an interesting thread for me.  Because I'm a citizen of the U.S. I have no experience of living under a monarchy.  In a very sentimental way, no doubt, I like to follow all Royal families.  And sometimes I see them providing admirable service, or taking actions that I consider admirable.  But underneath that, my major feeling is impatience.  I get impatient because you have a person, or rather a group of people, living in conditions of luxury, with access to the best in life: schools, jewels, assistants of all kinds; the ability to move in the best circles, meeting important people, living in historical buildings.  But most of them, these Royalties - do they deserve this bounty?  Are they worthy?  What did they do to deserve this, except to be born into an RF?  So it all seems completely unfair.  

It also annoys and frustrates me to see people with these advantages living lives which don't give back, or failing to give of themselves to others so much less fortunate.  I'm not saying they need to be saints, but would it hurt someone like "Princess" Maria Olympia "of Greece and Denmark" to do some volunteer work a few days a week?  Or Carl Philip?  Martha Louise?  Or Beatrice, Eugenie, etc.?    

In some ways I can see the value in a Head of State who remains unchanged until death.  But importantly it comes down to the character of that individual- and that character would have to be sterling.  (As well, the family members.) But in an environment where you're provided with a thousand advantages before you even draw your first breath, it's tremendously difficult to remain incorruptible.  As we see with all the recent examples.  

So I guess (after this long-winded spiel 😄) my answer is, I wouldn't want to see any deposed monarchy restored.



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Isabel
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« Reply #62 on: April 09, 2022, 03:06:21 PM »

The fact that of the 20 full democracies in the world 9 are constitutional monarchies would be a good reason, including the most democratic country - Norway, and 2nd most democratic - New Zealand.

Other full democracies that are monarchies - in order and their ranking, Sweden 4th, Denmark 6th, Australia 9th, The Netherlands 11th, Canada 12th, Japan 17th and the UK 18th.

Spain isn't classed as a full democracy but comes in 24th ahead of so-called democracies such as the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index



I disagree. Full democracies can't have their Head of State predetermined by birth.  That's not democracy independently of what international body determines what a "full democracy" is or means.

There has always been a case for parliamentary monarchies in countries where there is separation of powers as a monarch is supposed to be independent from the political power giving stability to all the institutions within the country.  

Unfortunately this is not what's happening right now in all monarchies in Europe.  Whether is Spain, Britain, Sweeden, Netherlands, Luxemburg etc there are serious questions about their lack of transparency, money in offshore accounts and lack of independent audits, lobbyists getting recognisition for money paid to birthday parties, international proyects and on and on.  There is also a lack of transparency how much money the monarchies are actually costing tax payers as published government funding never includes personal security for each royal family member which goes into dozen of millions every year.  This without counting the palaces, the personel servicing the palaces and whatever else it's never included in the "published funding".

I've been a strong supporter of parliamentary monarchies all my life but with every scandal I read, and there are scandals right left and centre in all of them, the less value they have in the XXI century.



The index has been the determinant of democracy standard for decades now and it doesn't even include the Head of State in the index but things that actually matter - like the way the government is elected and the rights of the people as a determinant of whether a country is a democracy or not.

Given that fact, that by this index, only 20 countries are full democracies and that the number of even flawed democracies are decreasing it seem churlish to worry about one minor part of the process when so much more determines what constitutes a democracy.

Given the choice between a US style 'democracy' or the Australian constitutional form - with the greater freedoms and more open transparency of elections we have over the US I will happily live in a constitutional monarchy over any republic I have seen.

Look, I don't really care about an index I have no idea who creates and what money and power are behind it.

To call full democracies to countries with separation of powers , and I say this in bold because without it there is a concencentration of power prevalent in dictatorships, is an oxymoron.  There can't be full democracy without all branches of power being elected by the people.  

I have no idea about Australia except I find extraordinary that in 2022 an independent country still has as a  head of state a woman who is the head state of a country 20,000 kms away with vasts political and economic differences just because 200 years ago an English captain "discovered" the country..  But hey ,that's an issue for Australians.

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« Reply #63 on: April 09, 2022, 04:19:58 PM »

The fact that of the 20 full democracies in the world 9 are constitutional monarchies would be a good reason, including the most democratic country - Norway, and 2nd most democratic - New Zealand.

Other full democracies that are monarchies - in order and their ranking, Sweden 4th, Denmark 6th, Australia 9th, The Netherlands 11th, Canada 12th, Japan 17th and the UK 18th.

Spain isn't classed as a full democracy but comes in 24th ahead of so-called democracies such as the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index



I disagree. Full democracies can't have their Head of State predetermined by birth.  That's not democracy independently of what international body determines what a "full democracy" is or means.

There has always been a case for parliamentary monarchies in countries where there is separation of powers as a monarch is supposed to be independent from the political power giving stability to all the institutions within the country. 

Unfortunately this is not what's happening right now in all monarchies in Europe.  Whether is Spain, Britain, Sweeden, Netherlands, Luxemburg etc there are serious questions about their lack of transparency, money in offshore accounts and lack of independent audits, lobbyists getting recognisition for money paid to birthday parties, international proyects and on and on.  There is also a lack of transparency how much money the monarchies are actually costing tax payers as published government funding never includes personal security for each royal family member which goes into dozen of millions every year.  This without counting the palaces, the personel servicing the palaces and whatever else it's never included in the "published funding".

I've been a strong supporter of parliamentary monarchies all my life but with every scandal I read, and there are scandals right left and centre in all of them, the less value they have in the XXI century.



The index has been the determinant of democracy standard for decades now and it doesn't even include the Head of State in the index but things that actually matter - like the way the government is elected and the rights of the people as a determinant of whether a country is a democracy or not.

Given that fact, that by this index, only 20 countries are full democracies and that the number of even flawed democracies are decreasing it seem churlish to worry about one minor part of the process when so much more determines what constitutes a democracy.

Given the choice between a US style 'democracy' or the Australian constitutional form - with the greater freedoms and more open transparency of elections we have over the US I will happily live in a constitutional monarchy over any republic I have seen.

Oh what a surprise.... so you think the chicken lot in government now is something to celebrate 🎉

I was talking about the SYSTEM. The SYSTEM is amongst the best in the world. It can't help the types of individuals who stand for election but the system is a good one. Even when Australia becomes a republic the system will remain the same - just adding an extra election for a Head of State.
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« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2022, 04:22:23 PM »

The system is never the problem, it is always the people...
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Princess MS

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« Reply #65 on: April 09, 2022, 04:26:50 PM »

The system is never the problem, it is always the people...

Imo both... if the system then would those who moved away a long time ago have changed their minds if it was better.... ie the US for example
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Isabel
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« Reply #66 on: April 09, 2022, 04:57:47 PM »

The system is never the problem, it is always the people...

The system is the problem.  It'll be fabulous if all queens and kings would be people of integrity, understanding of their constitutional role and able to create the network around them (the royal grey men) to support them.

It doesn't happen.  Reality is most of them are super rich priviledged people unaccauntable to any form for audit because as head of states, they have immunity.  Unfortunately, that immunity is for life, they can't be voted out and it will be passed on to their eldest chid perpetuating the system.

The longer I type about this issue the more republican I become

 








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Isabel
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« Reply #67 on: April 09, 2022, 05:14:09 PM »

The system is never the problem, it is always the people...

Imo both... if the system then would those who moved away a long time ago have changed their minds if it was better.... ie the US for example

Being a republican country doesn't mean going the US or France which Presidencies have serious powers that can overwrite legislative ones.  Germany, Ireland, Italy, Austria, Portugal ....have all elected presidencies but where the real power remains in the Parliament.

 
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« Reply #68 on: April 09, 2022, 05:38:15 PM »

Habsburg would certainly be fun. The heir, Ferdinand, is a race car driver. His younger sister Eleonore is a model and engaged to a Belgian race car driver.

And the famous Habsburg jaw seems to have vanished...









A little bit off topic.
For me, Ferdinand looks like Timothée Chalamet
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« Reply #69 on: April 09, 2022, 05:57:59 PM »

TBH - none. A lot of them just have very clever PR people I can think of a lot of current monarchs and crown princes and princesses and spouses and other family members that are not suitable for their positions (Frodo, MM, MT, Henri, Andrew, ...)
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« Reply #70 on: April 09, 2022, 07:28:06 PM »

Yup, I vote for none of 'em as well. That said, it would be interesting if the Romanov daughters had survived, and married and who their offspring today might be.
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Princess MS

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« Reply #71 on: April 10, 2022, 11:01:12 AM »

Yup, I vote for none of 'em as well. That said, it would be interesting if the Romanov daughters had survived, and married and who their offspring today might be.

Hopefully not like “Grand Duchess Maria” and her son ... both of whom seem to promote themselves and attend as many Euro wannabe events as they can... I wonder with the current situation if we will see them anywhere
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« Reply #72 on: April 10, 2022, 08:45:31 PM »

That's an interesting thought. I bet the alleged grand duchess is keeping her head down these days.
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« Reply #73 on: April 10, 2022, 09:54:34 PM »

As long as the monarch has received sufficient training, is mentally stable, motivated and determined it is endurable, but it is against the democratic thought that everyone should be able to earn the position. In many cases in the modern monarchies the heir is not the problem, but one of the spares (e.g. Cristina, ML, Andrew, ...) that create many problems and work against the monarch, creating bad headlines.
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