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AutumnOpal

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« Reply #225 on: May 05, 2021, 08:19:40 PM »

The title Empress of India was invested on New Year's Day 1877, having been engineered for Victoria by her prime minister Benjamin Disraeli.

And in direct reaction to the fact that her daughter would be an Empress once her husband became King/Emperor!  Mustnít be outranked by oneís daughter!

I love the stuff you post, Cyril.

Wow! I never knew that but it makes so much sense!!
And even though she was only Empress for 3 months, her title ongoing was still Empress Freidrich (although if you ask a non-Royal-stan who that is they wouldn't know, but they would probably have heard of Queen Victoria)
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« Reply #226 on: May 05, 2021, 08:27:50 PM »

Well Kaiserin Friedrich as she was called, was quite popular in Germany. So to be fair, most people in Germany would know of her. And to be fair, while everybody automatically thinks of QEII when you speak of the "Queen" or the "KŲnigin" (and not for ex. of any of the other european queens), a mentioning of the Kaiserin evokes a picture of either the Kaiserin Friedrich or of Kaiserin Sissi of Austria. Nobody, I dare to say connects the empress title with Queen Victoria...
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« Reply #227 on: May 05, 2021, 09:27:54 PM »

The title Empress of India was invested on New Year's Day 1877, having been engineered for Victoria by her prime minister Benjamin Disraeli.

And in direct reaction to the fact that her daughter would be an Empress once her husband became King/Emperor!  Mustnít be outranked by oneís daughter!

I love the stuff you post, Cyril.
     
Curtains, Thank you for your kind words!   
Unfortunately for Crown Princess Victoria of Prussia, her spouse reigned as Emperor Friedrich (Frederick) III for only three months in 1888.

Yes, that was a tragedy all around. He died and then his son, who apparently did not like his mother, took over. And then made some horrifically bad decisions which set the world burning in 1914.

Well Kaiserin Friedrich as she was called, was quite popular in Germany. So to be fair, most people in Germany would know of her. And to be fair, while everybody automatically thinks of QEII when you speak of the "Queen" or the "KŲnigin" (and not for ex. of any of the other european queens), a mentioning of the Kaiserin evokes a picture of either the Kaiserin Friedrich or of Kaiserin Sissi of Austria. Nobody, I dare to say connects the empress title with Queen Victoria...

Goo to know, Fairy. Vicky was not treated very well by her children IMO, so it makes me happy to see that she was popular with the German people.
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« Reply #228 on: May 05, 2021, 09:37:25 PM »

The title Empress of India was invested on New Year's Day 1877, having been engineered for Victoria by her prime minister Benjamin Disraeli.

And in direct reaction to the fact that her daughter would be an Empress once her husband became King/Emperor!  Mustnít be outranked by oneís daughter!

I love the stuff you post, Cyril.
   
Curtains, Thank you for your kind words!  
Unfortunately for Crown Princess Victoria of Prussia, her spouse reigned as Emperor Friedrich (Frederick) III for only three months in 1888.

Yes, that was a tragedy all around. He died and then his son, who apparently did not like his mother, took over. And then made some horrifically bad decisions which set the world burning in 1914.

Well Kaiserin Friedrich as she was called, was quite popular in Germany. So to be fair, most people in Germany would know of her. And to be fair, while everybody automatically thinks of QEII when you speak of the "Queen" or the "KŲnigin" (and not for ex. of any of the other european queens), a mentioning of the Kaiserin evokes a picture of either the Kaiserin Friedrich or of Kaiserin Sissi of Austria. Nobody, I dare to say connects the empress title with Queen Victoria...

Goo to know, Fairy. Vicky was not treated very well by her children IMO, so it makes me happy to see that she was popular with the German people.

She had a good relationship with her youngest daughters Viktoria, Sophie and Margarethe.

The one with Heinrich certainly improved as well after he had married her niece.

Charlotte is a whole other case. I don't think anyone in that family wanted anything to do with her.

As for Wilhelm II.: Vicky herself destroyed that one as much as he did later on. In my opinion she's just as much to blame that the relationship turned out like it did. Even if she didn't mean any harm, she still did it.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 10:12:13 PM by Kristallinchen » Logged
anastasia beaverhausen

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« Reply #229 on: May 06, 2021, 12:04:21 AM »

The title Empress of India was invested on New Year's Day 1877, having been engineered for Victoria by her prime minister Benjamin Disraeli.

And in direct reaction to the fact that her daughter would be an Empress once her husband became King/Emperor!  Mustnít be outranked by oneís daughter!

I love the stuff you post, Cyril.
   
Curtains, Thank you for your kind words!  
Unfortunately for Crown Princess Victoria of Prussia, her spouse reigned as Emperor Friedrich (Frederick) III for only three months in 1888.

Yes, that was a tragedy all around. He died and then his son, who apparently did not like his mother, took over. And then made some horrifically bad decisions which set the world burning in 1914.

Well Kaiserin Friedrich as she was called, was quite popular in Germany. So to be fair, most people in Germany would know of her. And to be fair, while everybody automatically thinks of QEII when you speak of the "Queen" or the "KŲnigin" (and not for ex. of any of the other european queens), a mentioning of the Kaiserin evokes a picture of either the Kaiserin Friedrich or of Kaiserin Sissi of Austria. Nobody, I dare to say connects the empress title with Queen Victoria...

Goo to know, Fairy. Vicky was not treated very well by her children IMO, so it makes me happy to see that she was popular with the German people.

She had a good relationship with her youngest daughters Viktoria, Sophie and Margarethe.

The one with Heinrich certainly improved as well after he had married her niece.

Charlotte is a whole other case. I don't think anyone in that family wanted anything to do with her.

As for Wilhelm II.: Vicky herself destroyed that one as much as he did later on. In my opinion she's just as much to blame that the relationship turned out like it did. Even if she didn't mean any harm, she still did it.

I donít know K. Wilhelm suffered from some sort of mental illness IMO, and itís hard to blame Vicky for that.
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« Reply #230 on: May 06, 2021, 12:43:38 AM »

I think the most damage to Wilhelm's relationship with his mother was done by the paternal grandmother, Augusta, who told Wilhelm that his mother was so disgusted by his withered arm that she refused to breastfeed him.  In fact the opposite was true.  Vicky wanted to breastfeed Wilhelm but was told "no, Royal duties come first" by the Prussian grandparents and Queen Victoria gave her no support, so she wasn't allowed. 

Also, it has to be said that Vicky tried every recommended method no matter how ridiculous or awful to restore life to Wilhelm's arm so one can hardly say she wasn't a concerned & loving mother. 
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« Reply #231 on: May 06, 2021, 01:48:51 AM »

The title Empress of India was invested on New Year's Day 1877, having been engineered for Victoria by her prime minister Benjamin Disraeli.

And in direct reaction to the fact that her daughter would be an Empress once her husband became King/Emperor!  Mustnít be outranked by oneís daughter!

I love the stuff you post, Cyril.
   
Curtains, Thank you for your kind words!  
Unfortunately for Crown Princess Victoria of Prussia, her spouse reigned as Emperor Friedrich (Frederick) III for only three months in 1888.

Yes, that was a tragedy all around. He died and then his son, who apparently did not like his mother, took over. And then made some horrifically bad decisions which set the world burning in 1914.

Well Kaiserin Friedrich as she was called, was quite popular in Germany. So to be fair, most people in Germany would know of her. And to be fair, while everybody automatically thinks of QEII when you speak of the "Queen" or the "KŲnigin" (and not for ex. of any of the other european queens), a mentioning of the Kaiserin evokes a picture of either the Kaiserin Friedrich or of Kaiserin Sissi of Austria. Nobody, I dare to say connects the empress title with Queen Victoria...

Goo to know, Fairy. Vicky was not treated very well by her children IMO, so it makes me happy to see that she was popular with the German people.

She had a good relationship with her youngest daughters Viktoria, Sophie and Margarethe.

The one with Heinrich certainly improved as well after he had married her niece.

Charlotte is a whole other case. I don't think anyone in that family wanted anything to do with her.

As for Wilhelm II.: Vicky herself destroyed that one as much as he did later on. In my opinion she's just as much to blame that the relationship turned out like it did. Even if she didn't mean any harm, she still did it.

I donít know K. Wilhelm suffered from some sort of mental illness IMO, and itís hard to blame Vicky for that.

Yeah there was some very strange psychology going on there.

Iíve always been fascinated with Vicky.
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Kristallinchen

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« Reply #232 on: May 06, 2021, 10:11:53 AM »

The title Empress of India was invested on New Year's Day 1877, having been engineered for Victoria by her prime minister Benjamin Disraeli.

And in direct reaction to the fact that her daughter would be an Empress once her husband became King/Emperor!  Mustnít be outranked by oneís daughter!

I love the stuff you post, Cyril.
   
Curtains, Thank you for your kind words!  
Unfortunately for Crown Princess Victoria of Prussia, her spouse reigned as Emperor Friedrich (Frederick) III for only three months in 1888.

Yes, that was a tragedy all around. He died and then his son, who apparently did not like his mother, took over. And then made some horrifically bad decisions which set the world burning in 1914.

Well Kaiserin Friedrich as she was called, was quite popular in Germany. So to be fair, most people in Germany would know of her. And to be fair, while everybody automatically thinks of QEII when you speak of the "Queen" or the "KŲnigin" (and not for ex. of any of the other european queens), a mentioning of the Kaiserin evokes a picture of either the Kaiserin Friedrich or of Kaiserin Sissi of Austria. Nobody, I dare to say connects the empress title with Queen Victoria...

Goo to know, Fairy. Vicky was not treated very well by her children IMO, so it makes me happy to see that she was popular with the German people.

She had a good relationship with her youngest daughters Viktoria, Sophie and Margarethe.

The one with Heinrich certainly improved as well after he had married her niece.

Charlotte is a whole other case. I don't think anyone in that family wanted anything to do with her.

As for Wilhelm II.: Vicky herself destroyed that one as much as he did later on. In my opinion she's just as much to blame that the relationship turned out like it did. Even if she didn't mean any harm, she still did it.

I donít know K. Wilhelm suffered from some sort of mental illness IMO, and itís hard to blame Vicky for that.

Sorry no. Vicky was not innocent. For whatever reason Vicky has been labeled the poor liberal Princess by everyone, who constantly suffered at the harsh Prussian court (I don't deny that many things went wrong there).

But let's look at it from another perspective:

Certainly the awful birth was no one's fault and certainly Vicky tried to do her best (or at least what she thought was the best)

What was done to Wilhelm in his youth might have been the best methods, but it was still awful and it would've been Vicky's part to put a stop to it (or at least encourage her child).

Instead she was constantly belittling him (yes maybe that was her way to encourage him, but it failed miserably). Wilhelm as a child always thought he wasn't good enough for his mother. F. e. at times he would be writing her letters in English telling her how much he missed/loved her. And she would sent them back to correct his grammar (with no loving word back).

Also about her standing at the Prussian court: I realise that Vicky didn't have it easy, her liberal ideas clashed with the Prussian military ones, she was very young, when she married etc... However she was Crownprincess of Prussia, so telling everyone constantly what a proud English Princess she was and that the English way was much better etc...(or at least always under her breath belittling the Prussian ones) certainly didn't help to make her feel welcome. This is also true for her relationship with Wilhelm.

I mean what would the English have said, if their Crownprincess had constantly told them how great Prussia is? (Even if not openly) I get that Vicky with times got more and more frustated, but that was also due to her character (for just as much as her in laws didn't want to move one millimeter, she also didn't). I don't think she ever really tried to adapt to the German/Prussian ways of living (well maybe in the first few years).

By the time her husband died they had basically shut themselves out.

And yes Wilhelm too didn't treat her alright, I don't deny that, f. e. with sending her soldiers to collect her letters after her husbands death etc.
(as being said the distrust towards his mother already stammed from his youth. Yes maybe his grandparents had their doings in it, but Vicky as well didn't help matters by creating an aura around herself that she was different).

And yes he certainly wasn't an easy character, but there's always two sides of the medal.

I know that many at the court, including her in laws, had a very suspicious mind about her even before her arrival. Basically she proved them right (I don't mean to say that she was dangerous or anything), just they thought she wouldn't fit in and she didn't fit in.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 10:38:16 AM by Kristallinchen » Logged
CyrilSebastian

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« Reply #233 on: May 07, 2021, 12:56:20 AM »

From August 12 to August 28, 1858 Queen Victoria visited King George V of Hanover.
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anastasia beaverhausen

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« Reply #234 on: May 08, 2021, 01:59:40 AM »

The title Empress of India was invested on New Year's Day 1877, having been engineered for Victoria by her prime minister Benjamin Disraeli.

And in direct reaction to the fact that her daughter would be an Empress once her husband became King/Emperor!  Mustnít be outranked by oneís daughter!

I love the stuff you post, Cyril.
   
Curtains, Thank you for your kind words!  
Unfortunately for Crown Princess Victoria of Prussia, her spouse reigned as Emperor Friedrich (Frederick) III for only three months in 1888.

Yes, that was a tragedy all around. He died and then his son, who apparently did not like his mother, took over. And then made some horrifically bad decisions which set the world burning in 1914.

Well Kaiserin Friedrich as she was called, was quite popular in Germany. So to be fair, most people in Germany would know of her. And to be fair, while everybody automatically thinks of QEII when you speak of the "Queen" or the "KŲnigin" (and not for ex. of any of the other european queens), a mentioning of the Kaiserin evokes a picture of either the Kaiserin Friedrich or of Kaiserin Sissi of Austria. Nobody, I dare to say connects the empress title with Queen Victoria...

Goo to know, Fairy. Vicky was not treated very well by her children IMO, so it makes me happy to see that she was popular with the German people.

She had a good relationship with her youngest daughters Viktoria, Sophie and Margarethe.

The one with Heinrich certainly improved as well after he had married her niece.

Charlotte is a whole other case. I don't think anyone in that family wanted anything to do with her.

As for Wilhelm II.: Vicky herself destroyed that one as much as he did later on. In my opinion she's just as much to blame that the relationship turned out like it did. Even if she didn't mean any harm, she still did it.

I donít know K. Wilhelm suffered from some sort of mental illness IMO, and itís hard to blame Vicky for that.

Sorry no. Vicky was not innocent. For whatever reason Vicky has been labeled the poor liberal Princess by everyone, who constantly suffered at the harsh Prussian court (I don't deny that many things went wrong there).

But let's look at it from another perspective:

Certainly the awful birth was no one's fault and certainly Vicky tried to do her best (or at least what she thought was the best)

What was done to Wilhelm in his youth might have been the best methods, but it was still awful and it would've been Vicky's part to put a stop to it (or at least encourage her child).

Instead she was constantly belittling him (yes maybe that was her way to encourage him, but it failed miserably). Wilhelm as a child always thought he wasn't good enough for his mother. F. e. at times he would be writing her letters in English telling her how much he missed/loved her. And she would sent them back to correct his grammar (with no loving word back).

Also about her standing at the Prussian court: I realise that Vicky didn't have it easy, her liberal ideas clashed with the Prussian military ones, she was very young, when she married etc... However she was Crownprincess of Prussia, so telling everyone constantly what a proud English Princess she was and that the English way was much better etc...(or at least always under her breath belittling the Prussian ones) certainly didn't help to make her feel welcome. This is also true for her relationship with Wilhelm.

I mean what would the English have said, if their Crownprincess had constantly told them how great Prussia is? (Even if not openly) I get that Vicky with times got more and more frustated, but that was also due to her character (for just as much as her in laws didn't want to move one millimeter, she also didn't). I don't think she ever really tried to adapt to the German/Prussian ways of living (well maybe in the first few years).

By the time her husband died they had basically shut themselves out.

And yes Wilhelm too didn't treat her alright, I don't deny that, f. e. with sending her soldiers to collect her letters after her husbands death etc.
(as being said the distrust towards his mother already stammed from his youth. Yes maybe his grandparents had their doings in it, but Vicky as well didn't help matters by creating an aura around herself that she was different).

And yes he certainly wasn't an easy character, but there's always two sides of the medal.

I know that many at the court, including her in laws, had a very suspicious mind about her even before her arrival. Basically she proved them right (I don't mean to say that she was dangerous or anything), just they thought she wouldn't fit in and she didn't fit in.



I donít want to belabor this point, but the Prussian court at that time was bellicose, militaristic and averse to any idea that was new.  They hated Vicky before she even got there - she was an ďEnglish PrincessĒ and not like them because she was raised as an intelligent girl not afraid to think for herself.

This was a no-win situation, and I stand by what I said - Vicky didnít really raise Wilhelm and wasnít responsible for his odd behavior and gigantic ego. That was all on him (and Bismarck).
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« Reply #235 on: May 08, 2021, 10:00:34 AM »

The title Empress of India was invested on New Year's Day 1877, having been engineered for Victoria by her prime minister Benjamin Disraeli.

And in direct reaction to the fact that her daughter would be an Empress once her husband became King/Emperor!  Mustnít be outranked by oneís daughter!

I love the stuff you post, Cyril.
   
Curtains, Thank you for your kind words!  
Unfortunately for Crown Princess Victoria of Prussia, her spouse reigned as Emperor Friedrich (Frederick) III for only three months in 1888.

Yes, that was a tragedy all around. He died and then his son, who apparently did not like his mother, took over. And then made some horrifically bad decisions which set the world burning in 1914.

Well Kaiserin Friedrich as she was called, was quite popular in Germany. So to be fair, most people in Germany would know of her. And to be fair, while everybody automatically thinks of QEII when you speak of the "Queen" or the "KŲnigin" (and not for ex. of any of the other european queens), a mentioning of the Kaiserin evokes a picture of either the Kaiserin Friedrich or of Kaiserin Sissi of Austria. Nobody, I dare to say connects the empress title with Queen Victoria...

Goo to know, Fairy. Vicky was not treated very well by her children IMO, so it makes me happy to see that she was popular with the German people.

She had a good relationship with her youngest daughters Viktoria, Sophie and Margarethe.

The one with Heinrich certainly improved as well after he had married her niece.

Charlotte is a whole other case. I don't think anyone in that family wanted anything to do with her.

As for Wilhelm II.: Vicky herself destroyed that one as much as he did later on. In my opinion she's just as much to blame that the relationship turned out like it did. Even if she didn't mean any harm, she still did it.

I donít know K. Wilhelm suffered from some sort of mental illness IMO, and itís hard to blame Vicky for that.

Sorry no. Vicky was not innocent. For whatever reason Vicky has been labeled the poor liberal Princess by everyone, who constantly suffered at the harsh Prussian court (I don't deny that many things went wrong there).

But let's look at it from another perspective:

Certainly the awful birth was no one's fault and certainly Vicky tried to do her best (or at least what she thought was the best)

What was done to Wilhelm in his youth might have been the best methods, but it was still awful and it would've been Vicky's part to put a stop to it (or at least encourage her child).

Instead she was constantly belittling him (yes maybe that was her way to encourage him, but it failed miserably). Wilhelm as a child always thought he wasn't good enough for his mother. F. e. at times he would be writing her letters in English telling her how much he missed/loved her. And she would sent them back to correct his grammar (with no loving word back).

Also about her standing at the Prussian court: I realise that Vicky didn't have it easy, her liberal ideas clashed with the Prussian military ones, she was very young, when she married etc... However she was Crownprincess of Prussia, so telling everyone constantly what a proud English Princess she was and that the English way was much better etc...(or at least always under her breath belittling the Prussian ones) certainly didn't help to make her feel welcome. This is also true for her relationship with Wilhelm.

I mean what would the English have said, if their Crownprincess had constantly told them how great Prussia is? (Even if not openly) I get that Vicky with times got more and more frustated, but that was also due to her character (for just as much as her in laws didn't want to move one millimeter, she also didn't). I don't think she ever really tried to adapt to the German/Prussian ways of living (well maybe in the first few years).

By the time her husband died they had basically shut themselves out.

And yes Wilhelm too didn't treat her alright, I don't deny that, f. e. with sending her soldiers to collect her letters after her husbands death etc.
(as being said the distrust towards his mother already stammed from his youth. Yes maybe his grandparents had their doings in it, but Vicky as well didn't help matters by creating an aura around herself that she was different).

And yes he certainly wasn't an easy character, but there's always two sides of the medal.

I know that many at the court, including her in laws, had a very suspicious mind about her even before her arrival. Basically she proved them right (I don't mean to say that she was dangerous or anything), just they thought she wouldn't fit in and she didn't fit in.



I donít want to belabor this point, but the Prussian court at that time was bellicose, militaristic and averse to any idea that was new.  They hated Vicky before she even got there - she was an ďEnglish PrincessĒ and not like them because she was raised as an intelligent girl not afraid to think for herself.

This was a no-win situation, and I stand by what I said - Vicky didnít really raise Wilhelm and wasnít responsible for his odd behavior and gigantic ego. That was all on him (and Bismarck).

Well, yes, she didn't really raise them. But that true for almost every princess at that time.

By point is Vicky also didn't really try to fit in (sure they didn't make it easy for her). But of course we can agree to disagree. Hug
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« Reply #236 on: May 08, 2021, 05:11:56 PM »

 Hug Hug We certainly can, and there is nobody Iíd rather have an argument about than this lady. And with you, because you are so well informed!

But now I want to conduct a seance so that we can get these pressing questions answered to our satisfaction.  
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 06:32:48 PM by anastasia beaverhausen » Logged
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« Reply #237 on: May 08, 2021, 09:33:32 PM »

I would also argue, that Germany at that point in time was not entirely "bellicose, militaristic and averse to any idea that was new".
Britain was involved in quite as many military conflicts and had quite the militaristic presence in all of her domains.

And Germany (I think the Nazi-regime and WWII coloured a lot of the perception of Germany) was pretty forward in a quite a lot of areas: Engineering (the first car 1885/ X-Rays 1895/ streetcars or trams 1866/ Periodic table of elements 1864/ and the argument with Bell and Edison about who invented what first is still open..) medicine (Think Robert Koch and bacteriology 1876, Apririn 1879) and bad Bismarck iniated the first real labour and social laws. Raiffeisenbanken, cooperative banks were established in 1850 to help poor farmers to negociate better deals with supplies...
Also a lot of Prince Albert's ideas for Britain came from his former home country Germany.
However I do think that Victoria valued her position as Queen Victoria's daughter as far higher than the daughter-law of a small (compared to the British Empire!) german kingdom...   

Anyway, I think that Vicky wasn't all to well known to the general public, but I wouldn't say she was unpopular. Unhappy? Yes, I should think so considering she had waited a long time to become empress and then she became a widow instead...
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« Reply #238 on: May 11, 2021, 09:50:11 PM »

Hug Hug We certainly can, and there is nobody Iíd rather have an argument about than this lady. And with you, because you are so well informed!

But now I want to conduct a seance so that we can get these pressing questions answered to our satisfaction.  

A seance would be great.

Btw I think Vicky was an interesting woman, who certainly wanted, what she believed was the best...but aside from her husband I don't think she was good at judging people right or knowing, when to stand back.

She put being a mother first, when she should've first been Crownprincess and vice versa.

She wanted for Wilhelm to get the best education and become liberal. Be it. But he wasn't that type. She couldn't accept it (long before he became Emperor). Instead of supporting him she became frustrated.

She supported her namesake daughter in a die heart love story even though she knew that neither the old Wilhelm I nor Bismarck would ever consent to it. They simply couldn't. Not only because he was a nobody Battenberg, but because it would've interfered in Balkan politics. Bismarck would've never messed up with Russia. Being intelligent as she was, Vicky should've known that and been truthful to her daughter, instead of making her have false hopes.

And about the thing of: If Wilhelm I had died sooner, if Friedrich III. had lived longer, if...then...there would've no WWI etc. etc...

I'm not so sure. As I said before Friedrich and Vicky had shut out everyone. Reigning isn't just about having a few friends in the University, it's about connections. They basically had none. The whole system was against them. Did they think they could change overnight what had been built up for decades? Were they really that naive?

None of them had a personality of leadership like Bismarck at that time (who therefore had to clash with his pupil Wilhelm II., because two alpha dogs naturally can't work together).
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 09:57:39 PM by Kristallinchen » Logged
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« Reply #239 on: May 12, 2021, 12:26:34 AM »

Would Emperor Wilhelm I have possibly abdicated in favor of Crown Prince Friedrich?
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