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Author Topic: Conflict Turkey - Netherlands  (Read 9602 times)
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Principessa

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« on: March 13, 2017, 08:44:15 AM »

Weird.......being called facist and a nazi relic as you don't do as the Turkish president want you to do...........
This is still the Netherlands over here, not Turkey!
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2017, 09:23:09 AM »

We enter the dagnerous territory of political discussion with this topic, however I want to state that Erdogan is so out of his mind and it's too bad and too sad for every nation that has a leader like him. We have seen in the past where this pattern goes and it's no good. And I'm not sure if Turkey has any other option at this time, someone else, someone rational who could take over. Erdogan controls the media, the academics... is there place for resistance? Where? How? I don't know.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 09:44:00 AM by onar » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2017, 10:15:48 AM »

Weird.......being called facist and a nazi relic as you don't do as the Turkish president want you to do...........
This is still the Netherlands over here, not Turkey!

It's weird and people should think about what such a remark says about themselves regarding education, intellect etc.
TBH I wish that all european countries would react like Denmark and the Netherlands did. Just because we are democracies doesn't mean we have to tolerate that kind of behaviour. Even with all the diplomatic efforts behind the scenes I think the EU should show they stand together in this despite our many differences and conflicts in other areas. For once it would be a strong position for future negotiations and a great sign of power that comes naturally with such a union. A language this person will obviously understand.
But that's just my opinion.
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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2017, 10:40:14 AM »

I hope that this sort actions of the Turkish and Dutch-Turks will not lead to a (significant) increase of Wilders voters this week (at the Dutch national elections).

An older family member remarked based on the news (coverage) that it seems to look like how Hitler came to power  Sad
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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2017, 11:33:59 AM »

While the Netherlands and Denmark are confident enough to be appalled but fairly unaffected by accusation of being Nazi and Hitler, Germany is still terribly vulnerable and cowers immediately. Which is why German authorities have not dared to openly protest against Erdogan's election campaign in Germany. Germany is extremely cautious to grant everybody but the rightwings all possible rights and Turkey insisted on the German right of freedom of expression - even though what they were actually popularized was in many aspects against the German  constitution.
As far as I heard NL did not allow turkish election propaganda and I can very much understand that.
However here in the news was a mentioning that a turkish lady-speaker was kept from reaching the turkish embassy, and sent back out of the country, that of course is a disputable action.
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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2017, 12:01:31 PM »

While the Netherlands and Denmark are confident enough to be appalled but fairly unaffected by accusation of being Nazi and Hitler, Germany is still terribly vulnerable and cowers immediately. Which is why German authorities have not dared to openly protest against Erdogan's election campaign in Germany. Germany is extremely cautious to grant everybody but the rightwings all possible rights and Turkey insisted on the German right of freedom of expression - even though what they were actually popularized was in many aspects against the German  constitution.
As far as I heard NL did not allow turkish election propaganda and I can very much understand that.
However here in the news was a mentioning that a turkish lady-speaker was kept from reaching the turkish embassy, and sent back out of the country, that of course is a disputable action.

The Turkish Minister for Family Affairs, Fatma Bet?l Kaya Sayan, was in the night from Saturday to Sunday  expelled from the Netherlands as "undesirable alien", told the mayor of Rotterdam Aboutaleb.

Minister Kaya was at midnight at the consulate escorted out of her car. That came after hours of negotiations. She was with her employees under police escort drove back to the border with Germany. "I condemn it in the name of all our citizens," said Kaya on Twitter.

The Minister of Family Affairs would actually speak on Friday in the Netherlands, but then was told she was not welcome in the Dutch towns ofHengelo and Wehl. Landlords of the planned rooms in both places decided to withdraw their spaces for political meetings. Then Kaya decided to drive to Rotterdam, where she was stopped at the beginning of the evening.

Previously the Dutch government decided to withdraw the approval of the arrival of the Turkish minister of Foreign Affairs: Mevl?t ?avuşoğlu:

"The Dutch government has decided to withdraw landing rights for the unit of the Turkish Foreign Minister Cavusoglu in the Netherlands. After a public invitation to Turkish Dutch to massively participate in a public meeting with Minister Cavusoglu in Rotterdam on Saturday, March 11th, the public order and safety be compremised", the Dutch government has announced in a statement.

Based on the situation above and related it seems IMO a provocation of Kayan to come to Rotterdam.

The Turkish government now also demands appologies and reprisals for the way (Dutch)Turkish protesters were treated...........
Well, those "nice"  protestors found it necessary to demolish and damage other peoples property to make their point loud.

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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2017, 01:16:41 PM »

Amnesty International
According to Amnesty International, no fundamental human rights are violated Saturday. For the Turkish accusations about police action against demonstrators, according to the human rights organization at first sight unfounded.

According to Emile Affolter  of Amnesty municipality of Rotterdam has three locations in the city designated where protesters could exercise their freedom of expression and right to demonstrate.

A fundamental attack on freedom of expression has not been detected according to Amnesty. " Therefore you really have to be in Turkey" said Affolter. He points out: "in no other country in the world so many journalists are locked up"  . That's according to Amnesty more than 120. The right to freedom of expression is  ''not well organized in Turkey. ''
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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2017, 02:15:49 PM »

Comment of a Dutchman in reply to an article in the Washington post (online version) https://www.washingtonpos...s/?utm_term=.b37686a6edb6

"...I am from the Netherlands and i can tell you that this not the right analysis. Cheap rethoric even.
For a nation to campaign in another country is extraordinary as such. This is about a referendum that gives Erdogan new powers of which Trump and Bannon can only dream about.
The Turkish minister a-priori said that the Netherlands was a fascist country, when he was campaigning in Hamburg Germany. After that, the Dutch Government made the decision to deny entry to the minister for campaigning reasons. Landing rights were denied. 2 days later, the Turkish minister of family affairs entered the Netherlands per car. The Turkish consulate was asked what was going on and replied that nothing was going on, while at the same time they knew that the specific minister was coming and they used social media to ask Dutch people from turkish descent to come to the consulate. So the consulate flat out lied to the mayor of Rotterdam, who was asking the questions. When the minister arrived, she would not leave the car and only when a towing car came, she came out screaming and yelling. In other words: Turkey did not respect the Dutch government, tried to sneak in another minister and flat out lied to the (local) authorities. This is not how a grown up country should behave. And ALL parties, including ALL opposition parties, supported the decision of the Dutch government. Trying to pinpoint this decision to Wilders and his rise to power, is utterly nonsende. Any other country would have reacted in the same manner. The Washington Post should get their facts straight and refrain from cheap rethoric.'..."
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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2017, 03:56:18 PM »

Thank you for explaining. I find the media often quite misleading. The media here had stated that while NL of course was within their rights to deny Turkish campaigners entry into NL, to apprehend a foreign person who was legally in the country on her way to her embassy/consulate without any sort of warrant was extremely controversial.
Then again Germany is very big into Assumption of Innocence: a couple of months ago, an armed man appeared on the roofs of some buildings opposite the administration of this province, the police did show up, however, since the man wasn't shooting anybody (yet?), they had to leave him there...until he was actually doing something illegal, the threat alone isn't enough.

Anyway: I think the biggest issue with the Erdogan dilemma is the dual citizenship. Technically you have to give up any other nationality when you apply for a German citizenship, or you have to give up your German passport if you apply for citizenship of any other country. The only exemptions are when you were born with two nationalities. (either because you receive German citizenship thru birth in Germany, while also eligible for another nationality due to your parent's citizenship, or vice versa)
Many German-Turkish people in Germany for ex, were granted the citizenship on the condition that they had to give up their former Turkish ones, which they did for about 15 min, then after the German passport was issued, the Turkish embassies re-issued their Turkish passports again. Illegal, but German simply turned a blind eye.
Now Germany is home to a lot of people who can vote both in German as well as in Turkish elections - thus making Germany a very important campaign area. I was not aware that NL was in an equal position. BTW, a lot of US presidential candidates also come overseas for campaigning. They however speak to the US armed forces on Us military grounds.
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2017, 04:39:59 PM »

Thank you for explaining. I find the media often quite misleading. The media here had stated that while NL of course was within their rights to deny Turkish campaigners entry into NL, to apprehend a foreign person who was legally in the country on her way to her embassy/consulate without any sort of warrant was extremely controversial.
Then again Germany is very big into Assumption of Innocence: a couple of months ago, an armed man appeared on the roofs of some buildings opposite the administration of this province, the police did show up, however, since the man wasn't shooting anybody (yet?), they had to leave him there...until he was actually doing something illegal, the threat alone isn't enough.

Anyway: I think the biggest issue with the Erdogan dilemma is the dual citizenship. Technically you have to give up any other nationality when you apply for a German citizenship, or you have to give up your German passport if you apply for citizenship of any other country. The only exemptions are when you were born with two nationalities. (either because you receive German citizenship thru birth in Germany, while also eligible for another nationality due to your parent's citizenship, or vice versa)
Many German-Turkish people in Germany for ex, were granted the citizenship on the condition that they had to give up their former Turkish ones, which they did for about 15 min, then after the German passport was issued, the Turkish embassies re-issued their Turkish passports again. Illegal, but German simply turned a blind eye.
Now Germany is home to a lot of people who can vote both in German as well as in Turkish elections - thus making Germany a very important campaign area. I was not aware that NL was in an equal position. BTW, a lot of US presidential candidates also come overseas for campaigning. They however speak to the US armed forces on Us military grounds.

According to the Dutch language Wiki about double nationality:
"..Op 1 januari 2011 woonden er in Nederland 1,2 miljoen personen met zowel de Nederlandse als ten minste ??n andere nationaliteit. Bijna de helft van deze gevallen betreft het mensen met naast de Nederlandse ook de Turkse of Marokkaanse nationaliteit.[2] Het aantal mensen met een dubbele nationaliteit is in tien jaar tijd bijna verdubbeld. De stijging van het aantal Nederlanders met meer dan ??n nationaliteit kwam tot 2003 vooral door naturalisaties. Bij hun naturalisatie krijgen mensen de Nederlandse nationaliteit maar ze kiezen er meestal voor om ook hun oorspronkelijke nationaliteit te behouden. Wettelijk gezien mogen mensen die kiezen voor naturalisatie sinds 1 oktober 1997 hun oude nationaliteit niet meer behouden. Vanaf die datum geldt in Nederland de hoofdregel dat iemand, die door naturalisatie Nederlander wordt, zijn oude nationaliteit moet opgeven "tenzij dat in redelijkheid niet van hem kan worden gevergd" . Er zijn daarnaast nog een aantal uitzonderingen.[3] Dit moet de genaturaliseerde persoon zelf regelen. Als men binnen drie maanden na de naturalisatie geen verzoek indient tot afstand van zijn oorspronkelijke nationaliteit bij de IND en bij de autoriteiten van het land van herkomst, dan kan zijn Nederlandse nationaliteit weer worden ingetrokken.[4] Er zijn heel veel uitzonderingen op de hoofdregel, waardoor bijna 80 procent van de genaturaliseerden na 1 oktober 1997 toch de oorspronkelijke nationaliteit kon behouden naast de Nederlandse.[5] Sinds 2003 neemt het aantal Nederlanders met een dubbele nationaliteit vooral toe door geboorte. In 2007 waren er 21.000 kinderen die bij de geboorte automatisch een dubbele nationaliteit kregen, omdat ??n van de ouders naast de Nederlandse ook een niet-Nederlandse nationaliteit had.[6] Na naturalisatie verliest een genaturaliseerde persoon soms automatisch zijn oorspronkelijke nationaliteit. Dit geldt bijvoorbeeld voor mensen uit China (behalve Hongkong en Macau), Suriname en veel landen in Afrika. Vaak is dat echter niet het geval en moet de genaturaliseerde persoon officieel afstand doen van de oorspronkelijke nationaliteit. Het is echter niet altijd mogelijk om na naturalisatie afstand te doen van de oorspronkelijke nationaliteit, omdat niet alle landen dat toestaan. De IND meldt dat er ? voor zover bekend ? ongeveer twintig[7] landen zijn die niet toestaan afstand te doen van de nationaliteit van dat land, waaronder Griekenland, Marokko, Mexico en Iran.[8 ]..."

"...On January 1, 2011 there were 1.2 million people in the Netherlands with the Dutch and at least one other nationality. Nearly half of these cases these people had in addition to Dutch, the Turkish or Moroccan nationality. [2] the number of people with dual nationality has almost doubled in ten years. the increase in the number of Dutch people with more than one nationality was until 2003 mainly by naturalization. In their naturalization people obtain the Dutch nationality, but they usually choose to alsoretain their original nationality. Since October 1, 1997 it is not allowed legally for people who opt for neutralization to maintain their old nationality. The main rule is that a person who is a naturalized Dutch citizen from that date must give up his/her old nationality, "except if it can not reasonably be expected of him/her" . Besides that there some other excemptions. The neutralized person has to arrange it for themselves. If one does not submit a request to renounce his/her original nationality at the IND and the authorities of the country of origin within 3 months of neutralization, his/her Dutch nationality may be revoked. There are many exceptions to the general rule, which still almost 80 percent of naturalized after October 1, 1997 could retain their original nationality alongside the Dutch. Since 2003, the number of Dutch with dual nationality mainly increases by birth. In 2007 there were 21,000 children who received dual citizenship automatically at birth, because one of the parents had in addition to Dutch non-Dutch nationality. Sometimes after naturalization the naturalized person loses his/her original nationality automatically.  This applies to people from China (except Hong Kong and Macau), Suriname and many countries in Africa. Often that is not the case and the naturalized person must formally renounce their original nationality. However, it is not always possible to do away after naturalization of the original nationality, because not all countries allow it. The IND reports that - if known -. About twenty [7] countries that do not allow to renounce the nationality of that country, including Greece, Morocco, Mexico and Iran [8 ] ... "

======================================

The latest official figures with regard to dual nationality from the Central Bureau for Statistics (CBS) date from 2014, when 1.3 million Dutch had two passports. Turks and Moroccans were the largest groups of respectively 312 thousand and 311 thousand with dual nationality.
Children of Turkish and Moroccan parents are automatically Turkish or Moroccan. Even if the child is not declared  to the civil registry in the country of origin.
Apparently since 2014 it is no longer kept up if someone has a another/dual nationality.

There are countries where you can not give up your nationality, such as Morocco. The country provides no possibilities to give up the Moroccan nationality. Morocco is it not unique. Even Queen M?xima can not get away from her Argentine passport. The same applies, for example, Greeks and Iranians and about twenty other nationalities.

Children of Turkish parents automatically receive Turkish citizenship. But other than Dutch Moroccans they do have the possibility to waive later. Anyone who wants to give up their Turkish nationality has to submit a request at the consulate. Within a month of three this would then have to be settled.
For men it is moreover a little more complicated than it seems at first glance. All Turkish men till 45 years should perform their (Turkish) military service. For Turks older than 38 years this is something they have to do first. They can also redeem military service for about 1000 euro. For young Dutch Turks, this is now no longer. But according Adalet, a consultancy for Turkish law, there are some other conditions. Who wants to give up Turkish nationality, must not be engaged for example in a criminal case. The past year there was the issue with a Dutch-Turkish (female) journalist Ebru Umar. She was among others accused of insulting Erdogan by Twitter and received house arrest when visiting Turkey. Because of all this Ebru, who kept her Turkish nationality to please her parents, wanting to give up Turkish nationality. As she was in a criminal case (insulting of Erdogan among others) she could not give it up (yet).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebru_Umar
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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2017, 04:52:33 PM »

According to the website of the Dutch government, you do not have to give up your non-Dutch nationality upon natreulization when:
https://ind.nl/paginas/afstand-nationaliteit.aspx

Wanneer hoef ik geen afstand te doen?
Er zijn verschillende situaties waarbij u geen afstand hoeft te doen van uw nationaliteit. U hoeft bijvoorbeeld g??n afstand te doen in ??n de volgende situaties:

- U verliest door naturalisatie tot Nederlander automatisch uw nationaliteit. Kijk hier of dit voor uw nationaliteit geldt.
- De wetgeving van uw land staat verlies van uw nationaliteit niet toe.
- U bent getrouwd met of u bent geregistreerd partner van een Nederlander.
- U bent minderjarig, dat wil zeggen jonger dan 18 jaar.
- U hebt een verblijfsvergunning asiel.
- Op het moment dat u het naturalisatieverzoek indient woont u in het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden. U bent ook geboren in het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden.
- U hebt de nationaliteit van een staat die niet door Nederland wordt erkend.
- U moet om afstand te kunnen doen een hoog bedrag betalen aan de autoriteiten van uw land.
- U verliest bepaalde rechten als u afstand doet van uw nationaliteit. U verliest bijvoorbeeld veel geld omdat erfrecht niet meer voor u geldt.
- U moet uw militaire dienstplicht doen (of afkopen) voordat u afstand kunt doen.

I guess in the past the last exception was applicable for most Turkish man (if you have to perform military service (or have to redeem it) before you can give the nationality). But I stumbled on some additional info:

Turkije
Bij verkrijging van de Nederlandse nationaliteit verliest u de Turkse nationaliteit niet automatisch. In principe wordt van u verlangd dat u afstand doet van uw oorspronkelijke nationaliteit. Hier zijn echter uitzonderingen op. Let op! Ook van mannelijke Turkse onderdanen die hun dienstplicht nog niet hebben vervuld, wordt verlangd dat zij afstand doen van de Turkse nationaliteit.

Turkey
You do not automatically lose the Turkish nationality when obtaining Dutch nationality. Basically, be required of you to give up your original nationality. There are exceptions, however. Pay attention! Also male Turkish nationals who have not completed their military service, are required to renounce Turkish nationality.
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2017, 09:32:11 PM »

IMHO Erdogan is a dangerous power grabbing man.

The Dutchman who mentioned Trump and Bannon wanting to also do a power grab is insulting. Trump has nothing to do with this.

It's ridiculous to have a country demand to campaign in another sovereign state.

At least one Mexican candidate has campaigned inside the US in California.
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2017, 10:03:30 PM »

What's really disturbing is that Ergodan and the Turkish trouble is very likely influencing the elections in both the Netherlands and in Germany too, and not in a good way. It is somewhat disturbing to see the conflicts from Turkey, that far too often end up taking a violent turn, spread to other countries. For instance after the attempted coup lots of Turkish schools in Denmark lost pupils as their parents took them out of certain schools that supported different fractions in Turkey. How are you supposed to react to that? Thankfully most European nations (at least in western Europe) are over armed conflicts: it feels extremely foreign and honestly frightning to suddenly have your Turkish neighbours arguing violently among themselves and honestly it also makes them seem non-European. Which is certainly not how you want to feel with all the racism, xenophobia and focus on differences between people being emphasised. It's also a pure win-win for Ergodan as he can claim he needs more power with Europeans being against him.

It really feels like the world is devolving Sad
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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2017, 10:25:17 PM »

It's similar in Germany with the demand of having Turkish thaught as a second language. In different states in Germany there are already elementary schools with bilingual language lessons, but for many German/Turkish citizens that was too little. They insisted on the language as integrated subject in the regular curriculum. Why it never came to fruition - thank god - is because the German governmant feared the influence of the Turkish government in the schools. The Turkish language/history curriculum is not determined by the Germany ministry of education but by the Turkish embassy in Germany. And I hate to say that over and over again....when an immigrant lives in a country (wherever that is) he/she has the duty to assmilate into that respective society, language, customs, etc. Nobody requests to give up one's own identity, but there has to be a compromise in living together.
Erdogan is a subversive politician, trying to influence, and already influencing structures/democracy in other contries.
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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2017, 10:34:22 PM »

IMHO Erdogan is a dangerous power grabbing man.

The Dutchman who mentioned Trump and Bannon wanting to also do a power grab is insulting. Trump has nothing to do with this.

It's ridiculous to have a country demand to campaign in another sovereign state.

At least one Mexican candidate has campaigned inside the US in California.
It seems that way, but if you consider how many of the people able to vote in your election living in those souvereign countries, it starts to make sense. As I said many US candidates have "visited" the armed forces in Germany to further their causes and to help their campaign. Among them was eg Obama.
Now this has never been a big issue, as first of all, US politics were rarely against German basic laws and constitution. (though the US still has capital punishment, which is one of the issues that the media holds against Turkey). However Erdogan's envisaged politics are in sharp contrast to European values and goals and as such countries as Germany, NL and DK certainly feel they are shooting themselves into the right foot, allowing Erdogan and co to whip up those dual voters into his favor and into opposition to what their host countries are aiming for.
@PeDe:
It is adding insult to injury, when good intentions such as allowing students in schools to break their classes for their ritual prayers (regular students can't even use the restrooms during class, which for some teenage girls is a nightmare), giving them separate washrooms for the preparation, banning pork from school canteens, sending only the boys to swim classes (not the girls) and so on is not met with some form of gratitude, but with even more demands and with a feeling that we are push-overs waiting to be told what to do.
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