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Author Topic: Conflict Turkey - Netherlands  (Read 9411 times)
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Maria
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« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2017, 10:39:27 PM »


It seems that way, but if you consider how many of the people able to vote in your election living in those souvereign countries, it starts to make sense. As I said many US candidates have "visited" the armed forces in Germany to further their causes and to help their campaign. Among them was eg Obama.
Now this has never been a big issue, as first of all, US politics were rarely against German basic laws and constitution. (though the US still has capital punishment, which is one of the issues that the media holds against Turkey). However Erdogan's envisaged politics are in sharp contrast to European values and goals and as such countries as Germany, NL and DK certainly feel they are shooting themselves into the right foot, allowing Erdogan and co to whip up those dual voters into his favor and into opposition to what their host countries are aiming for.


As one Danish politician wisely said: the problem is that the Turks are doing one-sided campaigning. The Turkish government are sending ministers to promote their side ONLY. In Turkey those against he governement aren't exactly having an easy time. So while on the surface it's democratic to have election campaigns in other countries, it's less democratic and more demagogic when it's just the one side talking.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 10:50:59 PM by Maria » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2017, 10:43:43 PM »

Quite and IMO that's rather interesting, since for some reason I think this is going to be a Russian election. It really doesn't matter how many people go to the polls or how many boxes could be ticked. It will come out as a landslide victory for Erdogan and to bell with the international election observers.
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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2017, 11:09:22 PM »

Isn't Erdogan basically a dictator, who keeps getting voted in over and over? He seems quite unhinged.
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« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2017, 11:11:38 PM »

IMHO Erdogan is a dangerous power grabbing man.

The Dutchman who mentioned Trump and Bannon wanting to also do a power grab is insulting. Trump has nothing to do with this.

It's ridiculous to have a country demand to campaign in another sovereign state.

At least one Mexican candidate has campaigned inside the US in California.
It seems that way, but if you consider how many of the people able to vote in your election living in those souvereign countries, it starts to make sense. As I said many US candidates have "visited" the armed forces in Germany to further their causes and to help their campaign. Among them was eg Obama.
Now this has never been a big issue, as first of all, US politics were rarely against German basic laws and constitution. (though the US still has capital punishment, which is one of the issues that the media holds against Turkey). However Erdogan's envisaged politics are in sharp contrast to European values and goals and as such countries as Germany, NL and DK certainly feel they are shooting themselves into the right foot, allowing Erdogan and co to whip up those dual voters into his favor and into opposition to what their host countries are aiming for.
@PeDe:
It is adding insult to injury, when good intentions such as allowing students in schools to break their classes for their ritual prayers (regular students can't even use the restrooms during class, which for some teenage girls is a nightmare), giving them separate washrooms for the preparation, banning pork from school canteens, sending only the boys to swim classes (not the girls) and so on is not met with some form of gratitude, but with even more demands and with a feeling that we are push-overs waiting to be told what to do.



Yup, exactly that!  Star

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« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2017, 05:34:34 AM »

Isn't Erdogan basically a dictator, who keeps getting voted in over and over? He seems quite unhinged.

Tayyip is now a full dictator. He's seeking to be God. And in full control of every outlet and every instutution in Turkey. Everything and everyone will be answerable to him and only him.
the NO vote is already 80% and climbing.
Many who have supported him (or were paid to support him) are opposing him and this move.
it'll mean an end to secularism and end to democracy. No turning back.
If the NO vote wins - cough cough - Tayyip will either throw it all out and force everyone to vote the ahrm..the correct vote - like he did few years ago when he lost 'an election'.
Or He will plunge the country into a blood bath.
Either option is  Yikes
If anyone would like to follow it on Instagram look for:
kemal, hayir, turkiye cumhuriyet, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk... These are some of the accounts that show resistance to him openly.
His own corruption and those of his ministers now know no bounds Dead

G Crap Snare
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« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2017, 06:01:39 AM »

I think he organized the failed coup against him to grab more power.
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« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2017, 07:37:56 AM »

I think he organized the failed coup against him to grab more power.

Not 'think'. Definite!!

It was an organised coup. Head of Military, Hulisi was part of it. It was his soldiers who did the deed to innocent soldiers who thought they were going on a military excercise  Dead    Hulisi is severely critisized by the whole nation for selling his soldiers like this.

it is now REpublicans versus paid supporters who want to see the country divided.

G
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« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2017, 09:19:23 AM »

What's really disturbing is that Ergodan and the Turkish trouble is very likely influencing the elections in both the Netherlands and in Germany too, and not in a good way. It is somewhat disturbing to see the conflicts from Turkey, that far too often end up taking a violent turn, spread to other countries. For instance after the attempted coup lots of Turkish schools in Denmark lost pupils as their parents took them out of certain schools that supported different fractions in Turkey. How are you supposed to react to that? Thankfully most European nations (at least in western Europe) are over armed conflicts: it feels extremely foreign and honestly frightning to suddenly have your Turkish neighbours arguing violently among themselves and honestly it also makes them seem non-European. Which is certainly not how you want to feel with all the racism, xenophobia and focus on differences between people being emphasised. It's also a pure win-win for Ergodan as he can claim he needs more power with Europeans being against him.

It really feels like the world is devolving Sad

In the Netherlands several parents also removed their children from G?len or G?len related schools. Some, often anonymous, tell that the education and all wasn't bad, but that they feel the pressure of their surroundings to pull their children out of their school.

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« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2017, 09:24:52 AM »

I think he organized the failed coup against him to grab more power.

Not 'think'. Definite!!

It was an organised coup. Head of Military, Hulisi was part of it. It was his soldiers who did the deed to innocent soldiers who thought they were going on a military excercise  Dead    Hulisi is severely critisized by the whole nation for selling his soldiers like this.

it is now REpublicans versus paid supporters who want to see the country divided.

G

Yup... I was so not surprised when people started talking about this. It was clearly an inside job, and did they not kill those innocent soldiers too? Sad
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« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2017, 09:25:57 AM »

Why would one country try to hold a political rally in another country?
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« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2017, 09:29:29 AM »

Why would one country try to hold a political rally in another country?

As Turkey has a large diaspora in EU, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_diaspora
Therefore if this diaspora is eligible to vote in Turkey, it would be interesting to rally them Wink

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Suzerain

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« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2017, 11:02:49 AM »

I'm just going to comment this in general without talking about the conflict at hand. I don't want any trouble with a certain country so what I'm saying next is my opinion as sort of a basic principle. Of course there might be special circumstances which I'm not aware of.

There is no reason for a country to hold political rallies and events in another independent country and I see no reason to allow it. I think it can be seen as a violation of self-determination of an independent state. IMO trying to get the immigrants to participate in the politics of their old home country does not help the immigrants to integrate into their new home country. If they wish to continue to participate (and are not willing to integrate), they can move back to where they came from. It's that simple. And I'm saying this as an immigrant myself.
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getafix
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« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2017, 11:33:56 AM »

I'm just going to comment this in general without talking about the conflict at hand. I don't want any trouble with a certain country so what I'm saying next is my opinion as sort of a basic principle. Of course there might be special circumstances which I'm not aware of.

There is no reason for a country to hold political rallies and events in another independent country and I see no reason to allow it. I think it can be seen as a violation of self-determination of an independent state. IMO trying to get the immigrants to participate in the politics of their old home country does not help the immigrants to integrate into their new home country. If they wish to continue to participate (and are not willing to integrate), they can move back to where they came from. It's that simple. And I'm saying this as an immigrant myself.

Suzerain, as a fellow immigrant one can and do carry several colours of different flags. The question, I think, you are really asking is Why is Tayyip trying to rein in his flock in far flug corners of the globe Wink

The answer, other than being in the wind, is that he needs to be seen as omnipopular. HE isn't. If he was that popular, he would NOT need to try to krall his wondered off flock. They would wonder back on their own in support of him. There is a very deep - very deep - hatred from Turks (living in Turkiye) towards Syrians that Tayyip has given citzenship to in exchange to get their votes. It is not the Syrians that many Turks resent. It is the privileges that they're given without working for it, such as they don't have to do military service; don't have to learn Turkish; free university entrance (Turks have to wait or have to sit tests); their youth are seen at the beach while Turkish soldiers are dying defending their country they've 'abandoned'... the list goes on.

All these tactics have been designed to divide and keep the country divided. it is now Kemalist versus blind ignorance of what is to come. It is not Kemalists versus Islam - for that is not what this fight about. Islam in Turkey now has no identity of its own.

Anyway. we'll end here.

G Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2017, 12:25:35 PM »

I think he organized the failed coup against him to grab more power.

Not 'think'. Definite!!

It was an organised coup. Head of Military, Hulisi was part of it. It was his soldiers who did the deed to innocent soldiers who thought they were going on a military excercise  Dead    Hulisi is severely critisized by the whole nation for selling his soldiers like this.

it is now REpublicans versus paid supporters who want to see the country divided.

G

Yup... I was so not surprised when people started talking about this. It was clearly an inside job, and did they not kill those innocent soldiers too? Sad

you mean, apart from beheading one innocent soldier Dead

yup more that 140+ were put to death, for no other reason than just doing their job and obeying orders  Crap Dead

they had to release people in jail to put in these 'new traitors' to the government.

Oh as a commemoration, they even minted new 1 Lira coins without Ataturk on them Dead Nono

they're removing as many as they can the statues of Ataturk from anywhere and removing his photographs from everywhere.

what interests me is that they're not replacing what they're removing with anything...so all these splinter groups are filling in the void...but none in whole Dead

Very very dangerous.

G
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« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2017, 01:40:49 PM »

According to a Dutch language news site:

....On Tuesday the Turkish President Erdogan has expressed himself hard again on/about the Netherlands. He said among others he knew Netherlands very well of the mass murders in Sebrenica (Bosnia) and suggested that the Netherlands "has finished" eight thousand Bosnians.

Erdogan also said that the diplomatic tensions between the Netherlands and Turkey can not be solved with only apologies from the Netherlands. He still holds the Netherlands responsible for the situation which has arisen between the two countries. And yet again he proclaimed the link between European countries and fascism.....


...Dutch prime minister Rutte: The tone becomes more and more hysterical. Rutte called the statements by Erdogan "vile falsification of history," he responds by RTL Nieuws. "The tone is getting hysterical. We are not going to reduce us to this level." The VVD leader called the allegations "unacceptable"...



...Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan says Turkey will go to the European Court of Human Rights because the Dutch refusal of Turkish ministers....... Dutch Foreign Minister Bert Koenders sees a positive outcome of possible treatment of Turkish complaints about the Dutch government by the European Court for Human Rights. "The way to the European Court of Human Rights is open to Turkey. Should the complaint be declared inadmissible, we see the matter with confidence," responded Koenders.
"Incidentally, Turkey as well as top of the list when it comes to judgments by the European Court of Human Rights.".........

Professor of international law Willem van Genugten of the University of Tilburg (Netherlands) considers it a potentially interesting case. "But you only get to the European Court if all domestic remedies have been exhausted," he explained to Radio 1 program 'With a view to tomorrow'. "I do not think it's going to be a serious matter. It would appear that Erdogan does so with very different reasons." The case now announce to all, Erdogan seems to want to say, according to the professor, "that he assumes that the Dutch court in that case will be possible partiality." Of Genugten thinks Erdogan in his possible indictment will rely on the obstruction of freedom of expression, freedom of association or freedom of movement. "But a Dutch court will judge very pure on the bone:. What were the facts, which rights have been infringed You can tell that Turkey there can still learn something from, because judges are truly independent here." Incidentally, any complaint of Erdogan to the European Court to be treated until about a few years. "The number of cases pending before the Court is around 90,000," the professor calculates.......



...With the refusal of the Turkish ministers Netherlands has violated the Vienna Convention of 1961, according to Turkey. The country says in relation thereto complain to the United Nations, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe and the Council of Europe, as the Hurriyet newspaper reported Tuesday. Monday  the Turkish Government said they wanted to complain to the European Court of Human Rights about Netherlands .

The Vienna Convention regulates the status of diplomats and their inviolability. Turkey argues that Saturday in the Netherlands the inviolability has been violated of among others, the Turkish Minister of Family Affairs, Fatma Bet?l Kaya Sayan, and the Turkish envoy in The Hague, Alper Y?ksel.

The International Court of Justice which is outstanding on such disputes between countries, is not in the list of institutions where Ankara wants to complain. The court is based in The Hague....


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