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Author Topic: Scotland to vote again to leave UK  (Read 1201 times)
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Winnifred

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« on: March 13, 2017, 03:37:22 PM »

I don't remember the Brexit thread getting out of hand, I think most posters were respectful of one another. In any case, if Moderators feel that this new topic is unwarranted or ill-advised, please delete.

As the UK faces uncertainty in its break from the EU, a deeper internal divide is once again stirring. Suffice it to say that elections do have consequences.

"But Sturgeon said Monday that Britain’s E.U. exit against Scottish wishes represents a 'change in material circumstances' that justifies a second vote. The referendum, she said, will give Scottish voters the option 'to follow the U.K. to a hard Brexit — or to become an independent country.'"

https://www.washingtonpos...mp;utm_term=.298151dd2216
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 03:42:59 PM by Winnifred » Logged

Principessa

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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2017, 04:45:51 PM »

Interesting how this will develop!
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MidnightDiamond

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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2017, 06:15:04 PM »

Sturgeon was leave uk campaign was weird last time. Saying they would keep the Queen, when the Queen has to approve if she wants to. It was like they wanted to have their cake and eat too. I wonder how this one will be hopefully they won't lie. But from what the polls are saying no one wants it. Seems Sturgeon is power hungry in my ignorant eyes of course.
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Little_star
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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2017, 06:33:34 PM »

Good luck, Scotland! Westminster has treated you abysmally.

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perdie

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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2017, 06:40:15 PM »

My Scottish friends were split roughly along the lines of the final result of the referendum.  Now, there is a clear majority to leave.  The Brexit referendum was the last straw for those who have changed opinion - they say it is clear that they are of a different mentality to the rest of the UK (NI being, as usual, its own little strange self and always ignored).  In the last referendum, polls started with Independence much lower and it did come up dramatically.  This isn't Sturgeon being power hungry imo; she and the SNP clearly stated that in the result of England and Scotland being split on Brexit that they would push again for this.  It is maybe a power play for now, to try and leverage some sort of deal for Scotland to remain in the UK but also have some sort of deal with the EU, but in trying to soften Brexit she is doing what Scottish voters want, I believe.  If it looks like Independence could win, then she may get a deal.  However, there was major resentment last time because things that were promised if Remain won never actually materialised.  There is no expectation that any promise will be kept.  Interesting that this comes on the heels of Spain saying they won't veto an independent Scotland entering the EU, as that was seen as a major stumbling block last time round.

It's a shame that NI, which also voted Remain, doesn't have a government that will stand up for what the majority of the voters there wanted.  Instead, it gets ever more parochial.  If Scotland does leave though, NI won't be long after it.  The links in NI are to Scotland, not to England.

We live in interesting times...
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Little_star
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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2017, 06:45:58 PM »

Well said, perdie.

All of my Scottish friends have indicated that they will vote Yes if asked again; even those who voted No previously. 
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Winnifred

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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2017, 07:22:36 PM »

My Scottish friends were split roughly along the lines of the final result of the referendum.  Now, there is a clear majority to leave.  The Brexit referendum was the last straw for those who have changed opinion - they say it is clear that they are of a different mentality to the rest of the UK (NI being, as usual, its own little strange self and always ignored).  In the last referendum, polls started with Independence much lower and it did come up dramatically.  This isn't Sturgeon being power hungry imo; she and the SNP clearly stated that in the result of England and Scotland being split on Brexit that they would push again for this.  It is maybe a power play for now, to try and leverage some sort of deal for Scotland to remain in the UK but also have some sort of deal with the EU, but in trying to soften Brexit she is doing what Scottish voters want, I believe.  If it looks like Independence could win, then she may get a deal.  However, there was major resentment last time because things that were promised if Remain won never actually materialised.  There is no expectation that any promise will be kept.  Interesting that this comes on the heels of Spain saying they won't veto an independent Scotland entering the EU, as that was seen as a major stumbling block last time round.

It's a shame that NI, which also voted Remain, doesn't have a government that will stand up for what the majority of the voters there wanted.  Instead, it gets ever more parochial.  If Scotland does leave though, NI won't be long after it.  The links in NI are to Scotland, not to England.

We live in interesting times...


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Ellie

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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2017, 08:12:15 PM »

Sturgeon was leave uk campaign was weird last time. Saying they would keep the Queen, when the Queen has to approve if she wants to. It was like they wanted to have their cake and eat too. I wonder how this one will be hopefully they won't lie. But from what the polls are saying no one wants it. Seems Sturgeon is power hungry in my ignorant eyes of course.

This is how I see it and how my Scottish relatives see it according to my dad who speaks to them often. They're all solid unionists though.

It'll be interesting to see what happens. Brexit seems like far more trouble than it's worth.
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MidnightDiamond

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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2017, 09:02:05 PM »

I hope that they don't lie to the people. Scotland will have to reapply to join the EU. And if they want the Queen as their Queen they will have to ask and hope she says yes. idc tbh, Scotland is beautiful though.
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Maria
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2017, 10:07:48 PM »

I hope that they don't lie to the people. Scotland will have to reapply to join the EU. And if they want the Queen as their Queen they will have to ask and hope she says yes. idc tbh, Scotland is beautiful though.

As far as I can tell the difference is now that an independent Scotland would likely be welcomed into the EU. Which is the difference that's worth looking at, because the Scots wants to be members of the EU. IMO the UK government brought the on themselves with their hard Brexit. No one wants a hard Brexit, except for the hardcore xenophobes on the right wing in England. I fail to see why the Scots should suffer for it.

What's far more worrying is the potential conflict in NI. There's is quite a bit of worry in Ireland/NI about the borders coming instead of going because of the Brexit. The recent election had a very muddled result and I have seen many worried that the conflict might turn violent again.
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Mary Stuart

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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2017, 10:15:06 PM »

Spain will veto Scotland's EU application. They don't want Catalonia getting any ideas.
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Maria
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2017, 10:19:24 PM »

Spain will veto Scotland's EU application. They don't want Catalonia getting any ideas.

I doubt Spain wants a weaker EU at this point.

https://www.theguardian.c...o-join-eu-commission-says

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The Spanish prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, made it clear in the days following the Brexit referendum that ?if the UK leaves, Scotland leaves?. Spain has long feared a vote to split the UK would boost Catalan separatists.

But the mood has softened since the Brexit vote. European politicians and diplomats are more sympathetic to Scotland and Madrid is thought unlikely to use its power to veto the EU hopes of a country that ticks the membership boxes.

A senior member of Rajoy?s ruling centre-right party told BBC Scotland last week that Spain would not seek to veto an independent Scotland. ?If you are thinking about Catalonia the situation is very, very, very different to the Scottish situation,? said Esteban Gonz?lez Pons, a Spanish member of the European parliament.

Zuleeg said the EU should be making contingency plans for the ?realistic chance? that Scotland would vote to leave the UK and apply for EU membership.

?If the Scottish population voted for independence because they wanted to stay in the EU the last thing the EU should do is to slam the door in their faces,? he said. ?Having a country join would be a very positive signal for the EU ... and a signal for those pushing EU disintegration.?
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Winnifred

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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2017, 10:45:36 PM »

https://www.washingtonpos...mp;utm_term=.5270a6e82a29



 LONDON ? The Scottish Parliament on Tuesday voted in favor of seeking another referendum on independence, setting the stage for a clash between the British prime minister and the first minister of Scotland.

The motion in the semiautonomous Scottish Parliament had been widely expected to pass, with the minority Scottish National Party government and the Scottish Greens supporting it.

Advocates for Scottish independence now have parliamentary authority for a referendum. But holding a binding referendum still requires approval from the British government.

Prime Minister Theresa May has not ruled out a second referendum, but she has rejected the proposed timetable. The Scottish motion calls for a vote by spring 2019.

[Video: Scotland slams Theresa May?s Brexit speech]

Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party, wants the referendum held within two years. In such a scenario, Britain would be engaged in negotiations to leave the European Union ? often referred to as ?Brexit? ? while, simultaneously, Scotland voted in a referendum on independence from Britain.

?Scotland?s future should be in Scotland?s hands,? Sturgeon said before the parliamentary vote, which was originally slated for last Wednesday but was postponed after a deadly terrorist attack in London that day.

Sturgeon met with May in Scotland on Monday to discuss the upcoming Brexit negotiations and the possibility of a second referendum on Scottish independence.

During the talks in Glasgow, Sturgeon said, May made clear that the details of Britain?s divorce deal would be known within two years.

?When that deal emerges, I think people in Scotland should have an informed choice about whether that?s the path they want to take, or whether they want to take the path of becoming an independent country,? Sturgeon told the BBC.

May has repeatedly said that ?now is not the time? for another ballot. ?Now is the time when we should be pulling together, not hanging apart,? she told reporters after her meeting with Sturgeon.

?We have a standoff, and there?s not going to be any immediate resolution,? said John Curtice, a politics professor at the University of Strathclyde. But he said that an informal campaign for independence has now begun and that the argument going forward would center on when ? not if ? a fresh referendum will occur.

David Mundell, the British government?s Scotland secretary, told the BBC on Tuesday, ?We won?t be entering into any negotiations at all until the Brexit process is complete.?

Sturgeon has signaled that she is willing to negotiate the date ?within reason.?

On Wednesday, May will trigger Article 50, the formal mechanism that will officially kick off the process of Britain withdrawing from the E.U. Divorce talks between Britain and the E.U. are expected to last two years.

Today's WorldView

What's most important from where the world meets Washington

Sturgeon dropped a bombshellthis month when she said she would seek a new referendum.

In 2014, Scotland voted 55 percent in favor of staying in the United Kingdom. At the time, Scottish leaders said it was a ?once in a generation? vote. But Sturgeon has argued that last year?s referendum on the E.U. ? in which a majority of Scottish voters chose to remain in the bloc and a majority of English voters opted to leave ? represents a ?material change in circumstances? and that Scotland risks being taken out of the E.U. against its will.

Pollsters say support for Scottish independence is roughly where it was at in 2014.

Scotland is ?split down the middle? on whether to have a referendum and on the outcome, said Mark Diffley, research director at the Ipsos MORI survey firm. He added that both sides hope the ongoing debate will ?shift the dial.?

Later this week, Sturgeon will write to May requesting permission to hold a new referendum by spring 2019. If the request is turned down ? as is expected ? she said she will return to the Scottish Parliament after Easter to set out her next steps.
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