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Author Topic: Royal Titles  (Read 19823 times)
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CyrilSebastian

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« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2020, 01:56:30 AM »

Why is Princess Michael of Kent not called Princess Marie Christine?   
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karma chamelion

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« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2020, 02:09:11 AM »

Why is Princess Michael of Kent not called Princess Marie Christine?  

Because she married a prince she is styled princess but since she isn't a "blood" princess she can't use her given names in conjunction with the title. As an example: Princess Beatrice was born a princess, but Catherine was not.

Long ago I had an acquaintance that knew PMK and said that with friends she is called Marie Christine but she is a stickler for protocol and has always insisted on being Princess Michael in her public role. He also said she is as formidable in private as in public. Indeed as Lilibet said, she's too grand for the BRF. Tongue
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luvcharles

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« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2020, 04:38:14 AM »

Why is Princess Michael of Kent not called Princess Marie Christine?   

In the UK only Princesses born are Princess with their own name e.g. Charlotte, Beatrice, Eugenie, Anne and Alexandra.

All wives of British Princes are Princesses but they only take that style from their husband so they take their husband's name and titles so Princess Charles (Diana and Camilla - the press and public were wrong to call Diana Princess Diana as that was never her name or style), Princess William (Catherine), Princess Henry (Meghan), Princess Andrew (Sarah), Princess Edward (Sophie), Princess Richard (Birgitte - The Duchess of Gloucester) and Princess Edward (Katherine - The Duchess of Kent).

The Duchess of Gloucester started her married life as HRH Princess Richard of Gloucester but when he became The Duke she became The Duchess.

As Prince Michael has nothing better for his wife to use she can only use Princess Michael. If he was a Duke she would use Duchess (but there are way too many males ahead of him in the line of succession to the Kent Dukedom for that to happen - The Earl of Ulster, Baron Downpatrick, Lord Nicholas Windsor, Albert Windsor, Leopold Windsor and Louis Windsor.

If The Queen hadn't made William and Harry Dukes on their wedding days then their wives would have been Princess William of Wales and Princess Henry of Wales.

Even going back into the 1960s - Prince Philip's mother, who was born a Princess in her own right (as Serene Highness but still a Princess) was always known officially in the UK as Princess Andrew of Greece and Denmark.
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Tsarina

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« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2020, 05:15:44 AM »

That’s an excellent explanation Star

It’s rare to find someone so well versed in the “rules” of royal titles.

I just want to add that the Duchesses are known as Duchesses because that is considered their highest title, more so than Princess William or Princess Henry. Just as a royal duke has a title that ranks above that of a prince (and any non-royal duke). Although this doesn’t necessarily indicate that they actually rank above a prince without a dukedom in the order of precedence. I nearly confused myself with that explanation Huh?
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luvcharles

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« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2020, 05:59:42 AM »

What confuses many people is the idea that a Prince/Princess can actually be a 'commoner' while a non-royal Duke/Marquis/Earl/Viscount/Baron is a peer.

There are three 'classes' of people in the UK:

1. The monarch

2. Peers of the Realm

3. Commoners - which is everybody else including the spouse and children of 1 and 2 so while William was 2nd in line to the throne as Prince William of Wales he was still a commoner but on his wedding day he changed class - from commoner to peer of the realm (the Queen made the bigger jump - commoner to monarch).

Prince Michael is the only adult Prince in the UK who is a commoner but all the princesses are - whether by birth or by marriage.

I remember when Anne was visiting Australia in 1970 and there she was being interviewed and the topic of the upcoming General Election came up. She was asked if, as she was over 18 and thus in the first group of Brits aged over 18 who could vote (the UK had lowered the voting age to 18 in 1968). She replied something along the lines of 'legally I could vote but I won't as the convention is that we don't involve ourselves in politics in any way and that includes voting'. I am sure there were many people who were surprised that she could vote (Charles couldn't because he was a Peer as Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick etc ... Earl of Chester I placed first because it goes with the Prince of Wales title and was created by the same Letters Patent. Prince of Wales didn't make him a peer. He became a peer at the exact same instant his mother became The Queen.)
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fairy

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« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2020, 10:46:53 AM »

Technically the former US habit of a wife taking on her husband's name is in the same vein.
-->Miss Molly Moddle marries Mr. Peter Parker and becomes: Mrs. Peter Parker... it changed over the years so that the usually custom today is Mrs. Molly Parker and even more modern Ms. Molly Moddle (Parker)...

In some societies (eg. Austria and Germany) the wives of men with a professional title like Doktor, Geheimrat and even Ingenieur were allowed to share the title.
So you would actually address the wife of your family physician with Frau Doktor. (most women with their own academical doctors weren't married and thus would be styled Fräulein Doktor)..
Alas those times ended with the big social changes WWII brought.
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Miss Marple

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« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2020, 02:40:02 PM »

Quote
In some societies (eg. Austria and Germany) the wives of men with a professional title like Doktor, Geheimrat and even Ingenieur were allowed to share the title. So you would actually address the wife of your family physician with Frau Doktor. (most women with their own academical doctors weren't married and thus would be styled Fräulein Doktor). Alas those times ended with the big social changes WWII brought.

We still had this in the 90s (plain German countryside).

What shocked me as a teenager was the wife of our local paediatrist. They met at university and after graduation, they both got married (both were doctors). She had kids and did not work at all for a decade (pretty usual at the time) and then she went into the surgery with him, but worked as a receptionist, not as a doctor because, she was afraid to upstage him. We had such a severe doctor shortage that eventually she very reluctantly at times helped out, but also the "easy cases" and every often asking him for a second opinion.
We always wondered: what happened to the courageous girl that went to study medicide after highschool?
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LadyBunion

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« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2020, 03:24:18 PM »


We always wondered: what happened to the courageous girl that went to study medicide after highschool?


Sometimes, not doing the job with making decisions 100's of times a day and meeting everyone's expectations can be a very attractive option - can also be hard if something goes wrong, confidence can go quickly and take a long time to come back. If you are off for a decade it would take ages to get up to speed and feel you are doing it as well as others.
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SvenskaSarah

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« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2020, 04:36:53 AM »

I'm sorry if this is posted elsewhere, but I have been unable to find the post (admittedly I haven't read through the many, many posts shared in this and other threads).

If Eugenie and Beatrice have children before Charles becomes King, will they be legible for a royal title, given that Eug and Bea are children of male line descendants to the throne? I am unsure as Edo and Jack have not become Royal Dukes nor Earls and the position in line to the throne for the princesses are somewhat down the line, and ofc the fact they are princesses rather than princes may inhibit them.

I cant think of any recent examples bar Margaret, whose husband was made an Earl at their wedding, and Princess Mary who became Countess Lascelles upon her marriage, though I am sure you on this board will politely remind me! I am all too familiar with the acquiring of titles in the Swedish Royal Family and find the BRF a confusing one to understand!
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Tsarina

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« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2020, 05:07:08 AM »

I'm sorry if this is posted elsewhere, but I have been unable to find the post (admittedly I haven't read through the many, many posts shared in this and other threads).

If Eugenie and Beatrice have children before Charles becomes King, will they be legible for a royal title, given that Eug and Bea are children of male line descendants to the throne? I am unsure as Edo and Jack have not become Royal Dukes nor Earls and the position in line to the throne for the princesses are somewhat down the line, and ofc the fact they are princesses rather than princes may inhibit them.

I cant think of any recent examples bar Margaret, whose husband was made an Earl at their wedding, and Princess Mary who became Countess Lascelles upon her marriage, though I am sure you on this board will politely remind me! I am all too familiar with the acquiring of titles in the Swedish Royal Family and find the BRF a confusing one to understand!

Their kids won’t have royal titles. It only passes through male line descendants. Furthermore, the royal titles end with the monarch’s male-line grandchildren. The monarch’s male line great grandchildren are entitled to be known by their father’s courtesy title (ie once James, Viscount Severn becomes Earl of Wessex his son, a great-grandchild, will be known by courtesy as Viscount Severn, as it’s his fathers second highest title). If their father does not have a courtesy title then they are entitled to the rank of the daughters/younger sons of a Duke (Lady/Lord). For example Prince Michael of Kent has no Dukedom, he’s a male line grandchild of a king and his children are known as Lord Frederick Windsor and Lady Gabriella Windsor.

The titles can’t pass through a female unfortunately. Their husbands would have to have received a title as Margaret’s husband did. This was typical before but after Anne is no longer. Both Princess Alexandra and Princess Anne’s husbands refused titles. I doubt they were offered to Bea or Eug’s husbands.

It is possible the EII could make the Dukedom of York heritable by female progeny. However, I believe this would require a second creation by the Queen for Prince Andrew and given everything going on with him I doubt that will happen.

Bea’s kids technically will have the title of count, only via courtesy and via Edo. But seeing as it’s not recognized in the U.K./Italy and that Edo does not use his title, I doubt their children will use it. But they are from a comital house.
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luvcharles

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« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2020, 08:47:45 AM »

I'm sorry if this is posted elsewhere, but I have been unable to find the post (admittedly I haven't read through the many, many posts shared in this and other threads).

If Eugenie and Beatrice have children before Charles becomes King, will they be legible for a royal title, given that Eug and Bea are children of male line descendants to the throne? I am unsure as Edo and Jack have not become Royal Dukes nor Earls and the position in line to the throne for the princesses are somewhat down the line, and ofc the fact they are princesses rather than princes may inhibit them.

I cant think of any recent examples bar Margaret, whose husband was made an Earl at their wedding, and Princess Mary who became Countess Lascelles upon her marriage, though I am sure you on this board will politely remind me! I am all too familiar with the acquiring of titles in the Swedish Royal Family and find the BRF a confusing one to understand!

In the UK the only people who are entitled to being HRH Prince/Princess are:

1. The children of the monarch (Beatrice and Eugenie's children won't meet that criteria)

2. Male line grandchildren of the monarch (Beatrice and Eugenie meet that criteria but their own children won't)

3. The children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales (Beatrice and Eugenie's children won't meet that criteria)

As a result their children won't be royal unless something dreadful happens to Charles, William and children, Harry and Archie.

Archie will become a Prince when Charles becomes King. He could be known as the Earl of Dumbarton now - using Harry's second title as a courtesy title, as James uses Viscount Severn or the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent's eldest sons use their father's second titles as a courtesy title. When their father's die they will inherit the Dukedoms but they won't be royal so both those Dukedoms will cease to be royal Dukedoms. Archie could also be Lord Archie as he is a male line great grandchild of a monarch as are Lord Frederick and Lady Gabriella Windsor (children of Prince Michael of Kent).

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SvenskaSarah

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« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2020, 05:41:34 PM »

Thank you both Tsarina and luvcharles for your explanations, a  Star to both of you! I do find the issue of royal titles within the BRF very confusing!
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lynaH

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« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2020, 05:59:32 PM »

Technically the former US habit of a wife taking on her husband's name is in the same vein.
-->Miss Molly Moddle marries Mr. Peter Parker and becomes: Mrs. Peter Parker... it changed over the years so that the usually custom today is Mrs. Molly Parker and even more modern Ms. Molly Moddle (Parker)...

In some societies (eg. Austria and Germany) the wives of men with a professional title like Doktor, Geheimrat and even Ingenieur were allowed to share the title.
So you would actually address the wife of your family physician with Frau Doktor. (most women with their own academical doctors weren't married and thus would be styled Fräulein Doktor)..
Alas those times ended with the big social changes WWII brought.
In the US some people would also follow those rules during Victorian times. Julia Grant was known as Mrs. President Grant, or latter as Mrs. Ex-President Grant. Before her husband became president she was called Mrs. General Grant.
All that was always seen as incorrect and vulgar by the 400, who stuck with the etiquette we have today. They called her Mrs. Grant, or Mrs. Ulysses Grant.
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Tsarina

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« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2020, 09:46:54 PM »

Thank you both Tsarina and luvcharles for your explanations, a  Star to both of you! I do find the issue of royal titles within the BRF very confusing!

The whole BRF system is very confusing! Especially compared to other European countries Crazy
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cordtx

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« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2020, 10:27:00 PM »

So what does:

HRH The Duke of Cambridge KG KT PC ADC (P)
And
The Duke of Sussex KCVO
mean?
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