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Author Topic: Franz-Joseph and Sisi  (Read 38540 times)
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fruela

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« Reply #150 on: December 28, 2019, 08:35:45 PM »

I've read and kept several books about Sisi which show some  pictures and photos. CS,K. do you know whether the family still keep any more pictures -- private family photos? She was all against being photographed ...maybe in her thirties or after Rudolph's death.
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CyrilSebastian

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« Reply #151 on: December 29, 2019, 12:51:59 AM »

I've read and kept several books about Sisi which show some  pictures and photos. CS,K. do you know whether the family still keep any more pictures -- private family photos? She was all against being photographed ...maybe in her thirties or after Rudolph's death.
   
 
fruela, I do not know if Elisabeth and Francis Joseph's descendants have any private family photos that were ever previously published.
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fruela

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« Reply #152 on: December 29, 2019, 04:41:05 PM »

I've read and kept several books about Sisi which show some  pictures and photos. CS,K. do you know whether the family still keep any more pictures -- private family photos? She was all against being photographed ...maybe in her thirties or after Rudolph's death.
   
 
fruela, I do not know if Elisabeth and Francis Joseph's descendants have any private family photos that were ever previously published.
Thanks, CS. I have always wondered ,because there don't seem to be that many pictures, esp. photos of her. Most books about her/them often show the same paintings and photos.
BTW, is Possenhoffen still owned by the Wittelsbachs? What about Bad Ischl? Do any of their descendants own the place? I'm a bit --completeley--lost far concerning Central Europe former Royals and nobility. The Hapsburg are less of a mystery because they were the reigning dynasty here  up to the Borbón line and then they came back again when King Alfonso XII married María Cristina de Habsburgo. All the rest is a vast blur (e.g., how is Sophie of Liechtenstein related to Sisi?). Thanks a lot --and a Happy New Year to you and every fellow disher.
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fairy

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« Reply #153 on: December 29, 2019, 08:59:49 PM »

Schloss Possenhofen was sold before WWII and fell into great disrepair. It was sold to a private investor in the 1980s who turned it into an apartment complex. The formerly private beach at the lake is now public.
The Kaiservilla Bad Ischl (the emporer's summer Palace) is still owned by decendants of the emporer Franz Josef (thru his youngest daughter, Marie Valerie) and can be visited during summer and some winter months. It is financed thru tourism and the Austrian historic preservation funds.
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« Reply #154 on: December 29, 2019, 10:12:12 PM »

Thanks a lot,Fairy.  Smiley
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CyrilSebastian

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« Reply #155 on: December 29, 2019, 10:50:46 PM »

Fairy, Thank you for the information.  Star
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fairy

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« Reply #156 on: December 30, 2019, 08:23:23 PM »

Both areas are lovely for a visit. There is a Sisi-Museum somewhere in Possenhofen. (My girls once attended summer camp at the lake and Fairy-Mom was determined to go to the museum either after drop off or before pick up, alas, Mr. Fairy was dead set against that… Cry) In any case the area and the lake are lovely.
I visited Bad Ischl about 25 years ago and the palace and the gardens were fantastic...
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karma chamelion

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« Reply #157 on: December 30, 2019, 10:27:48 PM »

Both areas are lovely for a visit. There is a Sisi-Museum somewhere in Possenhofen. (My girls once attended summer camp at the lake and Fairy-Mom was determined to go to the museum either after drop off or before pick up, alas, Mr. Fairy was dead set against that… Cry) In any case the area and the lake are lovely.
I visited Bad Ischl about 25 years ago and the palace and the gardens were fantastic...

So jealous! Thank you for sharing.
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Miss Marple

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« Reply #158 on: December 30, 2019, 10:58:10 PM »

Basically she was an innocent child who got married off way too early and could not cope. Also her beauty came to a peak a few years into her marriage. It is very sad that she never could fully cope with life and this makes her very fascinating. 
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Kristallinchen

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« Reply #159 on: January 01, 2020, 05:54:39 PM »

Basically she was an innocent child who got married off way too early and could not cope. Also her beauty came to a peak a few years into her marriage. It is very sad that she never could fully cope with life and this makes her very fascinating. 

FJ IMO clearly underestimated the role of the Empress and that Sisi wouldn't be able to fulfill them. Just being beautiful wasn't enough.

Also Archduchess Sophie stated quite openly that she had nothing personally against her niece, but simply feared that she wouldn't be able cope with her position. In the end she was right.
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« Reply #160 on: January 01, 2020, 09:07:25 PM »

Basically she was an innocent child who got married off way too early and could not cope. Also her beauty came to a peak a few years into her marriage. It is very sad that she never could fully cope with life and this makes her very fascinating. 

FJ IMO clearly underestimated the role of the Empress and that Sisi wouldn't be able to fulfill them. Just being beautiful wasn't enough.

Also Archduchess Sophie stated quite openly that she had nothing personally against her niece, but simply feared that she wouldn't be able cope with her position. In the end she was right.

You would have to wonder what would have happened if they left Sisi home and just brought Helene...   Thinking
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Kristallinchen

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« Reply #161 on: January 01, 2020, 09:16:28 PM »

Basically she was an innocent child who got married off way too early and could not cope. Also her beauty came to a peak a few years into her marriage. It is very sad that she never could fully cope with life and this makes her very fascinating.  

FJ IMO clearly underestimated the role of the Empress and that Sisi wouldn't be able to fulfill them. Just being beautiful wasn't enough.

Also Archduchess Sophie stated quite openly that she had nothing personally against her niece, but simply feared that she wouldn't be able cope with her position. In the end she was right.

You would have to wonder what would have happened if they left Sisi home and just brought Helene...   Thinking

In the end this would've been the better match for the country, if not for FJ too. Although he obviously always kind of was in love with Sisi, he still cheated on her.

He most likely would've cheated on Nene too, but she was a different character and was more likely to get over with it.

You can spin this further:

Would the crownprince have committed suicide?

The coalition with Hungary most likely wouldn't have taken place (and at the same time the degrading of the other minorities)...

also FF most likely wouldn't have come in the heir position and therefore Sarajevo with all it's impact might not have happened as well.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 09:22:33 PM by Kristallinchen » Logged
Miss Marple

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« Reply #162 on: January 01, 2020, 10:06:23 PM »

After all, an arranged marriage would have been better for FJ. I am not sure if it made a difference to Sisi, because she could not settle. She did not care about protocoll at all. I remember I read somewhere that she went to England because she was an avid horse woman and snubbed Queen Victoria for not having tea with her or anything. She did whatever she wanted to do and was still not happy with it.
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Kristallinchen

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« Reply #163 on: January 01, 2020, 10:19:55 PM »

After all, an arranged marriage would have been better for FJ. I am not sure if it made a difference to Sisi, because she could not settle. She did not care about protocoll at all. I remember I read somewhere that she went to England because she was an avid horse woman and snubbed Queen Victoria for not having tea with her or anything. She did whatever she wanted to do and was still not happy with it.

This basically sums it up. Although to be fair she was clearly depression. Sadly this wasn't understood at this time.

I believe she would've been happier, if she'd married a minor aristocrat.

The yes she went to England, because of the horses. She didn't care about the Queen. She certainly loved the prestige and money that came with her position, whenever it suited her. But she didn't want to take any responsibility. Well you've got to live with both or neither.
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Carreen

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« Reply #164 on: January 01, 2020, 11:06:25 PM »

I remember from Empress Frederick's letters that she was quite fascinated with Sisi, rudeness and all. She could be very charming if she wanted to. And she was an intelligent woman, able to distance herself from her own role.

I always feel it was such a pity that Sisi didn't open up more to her son. She focused all her love on her youngest daughter Valerie (who was actually emotionally much closer to her father) and didn't communicate much with Gisela (who married to get out of the house) and Rudolph. And Rudolph carried not only the burden of being the future heir but also didn't believe in the monarchical system. An open dialogue with his mother about his future role might have done much, at least something, to avoid both his personal tragedy and the downfall of the double monarchy.

But Sisi was always focused completely on her own needs. At least that's what I understand from the biographies and letters I read.

Btw, if you like books about Sisi... there is humorous portrait of a devoted Sisi biography reader in Georgette Heyer's whodunit "Envious Casca". Heyer is famous for her comedies of manners (you can't call unsentimental books like hers "romances"...) but her detective novels are fun, too. Go ahead, read it, and then tell me how you liked it :-)

When I was younger and beauty seemed very important to me, I admired Sisi for her beauty and the devotion she inspired in her husbands and others. Sisi herself valued beauty highly and collected pictures of beautiful women. She was very proud of her beautiful sisters. To teenage me, she seemed to float in a world of beauty and refinement.

Now that I'm older, I see her differently. She didn't do her duty, neither as empress nor wife nor mother.  These are difficult roles but she didn't even try much. She just slipped away - to her poems, travels, castles, dreams.

It's probably true she suffered under some form of depression. It's difficult to "put someone on the couch" posthumously but I've read somewhere that one depressive syndrome is even called after her - depression that goes along with restless movement and an inability to relax. There is some controversy about this syndrome, if I recall correctly, but I think my own mother suffered for years from it after my father died. She was deeply sad, traveled all the time, made a lot of sport and cultural activities, and could never sit still. She never seeked for help, unfortunately.

Another thing, I may have mentioned it before? I went to school with a great-great-great-daughter (did I count that right?) of Marie Valerie, i.e., she was a direct descendant of Sisi. Didn't look like her at all though :-) Then, we didn't know it, we only knew she was from the high aristocracy but it didn't matter. Some years ago, I remembered her and googled her name to learn more about her family background. And there it was. Her mother had been an arch duchess.

Sisi has certainly left a huge imprint on our historical memory. You can't pass the Vienna airport without finding everything and anything with her ethereally beautiful face on it... and she was a bird in a cage, which makes her still fascinating.
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