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Author Topic: Afghanistan  (Read 6917 times)
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Paulina

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« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2021, 03:28:58 PM »

Trump made deals with the Taliban last year or in 2019 and released 5000 Taliban prisoners, some of whom are the leaders now.

This debacle really was started by Dick Cheney and Bush 2. And continued or made worse ever since by each administration.

What a mess right now. Tragic on so many levels.
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Aubiette

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« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2021, 03:56:14 PM »

This unmitigated disaster is on this administration. Yes there are 20 years of issues across multiple administrations and party lines but the way this was handled in this moment is not on them. Iím sick over the plight of the Afghan people but Iím livid over how our people were left. How interpreters were left. How the Bagram Air Base was shut down before getting people out. Reports of not helping Americans and others stuck outside Kabul. How this has all gone down. This is a bleeping clown show with so many lives at stake and far reaching, long lasting consequences.
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« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2021, 06:47:05 PM »

The men selfishly crowding onto the cargo planes and leaving their sisters to a life as sex slaves are not TalibanÖ itís appalling that they are getting away with such behaviourÖ

yes, i noticed that as well.  shameful.  no women and children first policy!
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Aubiette

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« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2021, 06:51:41 PM »

Iím so mad I donít know what to do with myself.

https://news.sky.com/stor...ers-to-take-them-12384646
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anastasia beaverhausen

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« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2021, 07:11:34 PM »

This unmitigated disaster is on this administration. Yes there are 20 years of issues across multiple administrations and party lines but the way this was handled in this moment is not on them. Iím sick over the plight of the Afghan people but Iím livid over how our people were left. How interpreters were left. How the Bagram Air Base was shut down before getting people out. Reports of not helping Americans and others stuck outside Kabul. How this has all gone down. This is a bleeping clown show with so many lives at stake and far reaching, long lasting consequences.

I really have to disagree here - Biden was in a no-win situation and itís a miracle that no lives were lost.

The agreement with the Taliban was in several parts: firstly, that the US would take no part in any internal conflict within Afghanistan (effectively saying that the US would not resist a Taliban takeover of a region); secondly that 5,000 Taliban would be released by the US; and thirdly that the US would withdraw on a strict timetable.

So Biden enters office after a hostile transition, with Donald Trump having done nothing to prepare for a transition - not even a plan. So Biden is forced to do it and do it quickly because of the timetable.

Unfortunately Taliban didnít care about any of this. As far as they were concerned, they could invade Afghanistan at will, and the US wouldnít intervene.

Biden could have cancelled the withdrawal, or attempted to further delay it, but this wouldnít have changed the Talibanís plans. They were invading regardless, because the one thing that had stopped them (the risk that the US would fight back) was off the table: Trump had agreed to release the troops. With less than 5,000 US troops in Afghanistan, if the Taliban decided to do battle with US forces, the American troops would have been slaughtered - the Talibanís forces standing at roughly 80,000 troops.

So, Bidenís faced with a problem: the Taliban are invading Afghanistan based on the timetable agreed by Donald Trump. Theyíve been told that US forces wonít fight, which is why theyíre invading. And there arenít enough troops on the ground to actually fight - and not that Biden wants them to. He agrees that the US should withdraw. The difference is that he would have done it more gradually, and sensibly, rather than simply handing the country to the Taliban without consideration for the withdrawal.

Unfortunately, heís forced into a bad position, and he has to honor the deal or risk the Taliban turning on a vastly-outnumbered set of US forces. Worse still, the Afghan Army refused to fight for their country, so the timetable has shrunk even more than the US had expected: now, suddenly, they have to withdraw with the Taliban in control of Afghanistan.

None of this would have come to pass had Donald Trump not locked the US into an agreement, and then done little to actually ensure a timely withdrawal. He wasted months following the election, and the hostile nature of the transition ensured that Biden would not only have a truckload of problems to attend to as soon as he came into office, but that heíd have to put a full withdrawal into place from scratch, since Trump hadnít bothered a full plan to get the job done.

JMO - thereís plenty of blame to go around.
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thecrownjewelthief

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« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2021, 07:22:51 PM »

This unmitigated disaster is on this administration. Yes there are 20 years of issues across multiple administrations and party lines but the way this was handled in this moment is not on them. I’m sick over the plight of the Afghan people but I’m livid over how our people were left. How interpreters were left. How the Bagram Air Base was shut down before getting people out. Reports of not helping Americans and others stuck outside Kabul. How this has all gone down. This is a bleeping clown show with so many lives at stake and far reaching, long lasting consequences.

I really have to disagree here - Biden was in a no-win situation and it’s a miracle that no lives were lost.

The agreement with the Taliban was in several parts: firstly, that the US would take no part in any internal conflict within Afghanistan (effectively saying that the US would not resist a Taliban takeover of a region); secondly that 5,000 Taliban would be released by the US; and thirdly that the US would withdraw on a strict timetable.

So Biden enters office after a hostile transition, with Donald Trump having done nothing to prepare for a transition - not even a plan. So Biden is forced to do it and do it quickly because of the timetable.

Unfortunately Taliban didn’t care about any of this. As far as they were concerned, they could invade Afghanistan at will, and the US wouldn’t intervene.

Biden could have cancelled the withdrawal, or attempted to further delay it, but this wouldn’t have changed the Taliban’s plans. They were invading regardless, because the one thing that had stopped them (the risk that the US would fight back) was off the table: Trump had agreed to release the troops. With less than 5,000 US troops in Afghanistan, if the Taliban decided to do battle with US forces, the American troops would have been slaughtered - the Taliban’s forces standing at roughly 80,000 troops.

So, Biden’s faced with a problem: the Taliban are invading Afghanistan based on the timetable agreed by Donald Trump. They’ve been told that US forces won’t fight, which is why they’re invading. And there aren’t enough troops on the ground to actually fight - and not that Biden wants them to. He agrees that the US should withdraw. The difference is that he would have done it more gradually, and sensibly, rather than simply handing the country to the Taliban without consideration for the withdrawal.

Unfortunately, he’s forced into a bad position, and he has to honor the deal or risk the Taliban turning on a vastly-outnumbered set of US forces. Worse still, the Afghan Army refused to fight for their country, so the timetable has shrunk even more than the US had expected: now, suddenly, they have to withdraw with the Taliban in control of Afghanistan.

None of this would have come to pass had Donald Trump not locked the US into an agreement, and then done little to actually ensure a timely withdrawal. He wasted months following the election, and the hostile nature of the transition ensured that Biden would not only have a truckload of problems to attend to as soon as he came into office, but that he’d have to put a full withdrawal into place from scratch, since Trump hadn’t bothered a full plan to get the job done.

JMO - there’s plenty of blame to go around.

Absolutely. People want to cast blame to score political points for their side but this is a result of years of bad US-led policy decisions on both sides. This never should’ve been a 20 year war and we should never be in the business is nation building - especially since we’re quite bad at it. My brother worked in national security in DC for a decade and his take is that we never really understood Afghanistan in the end. It’s just a shame that the Afghan people have to pay the price.
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Paulina

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« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2021, 08:17:25 PM »

Much as I love the US, I think the arrogance of the country since the victories of WW2 went to our heads. There has been interference and nation building and meddling in too  many countries around the world since Eisenhower/Kennedy/Johnson/Nixon/Carter (less so)/Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush2/Obama/Trump/ now Biden.

Powerful countries acting powerful, though, has been around since. .  . at least Roman times. *sigh*
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Aubiette

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« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2021, 08:23:22 PM »

Yes we will have to agree to disagree. I am speaking of how this was handled in this moment.  It’s a clusterF of epic proportions. It seems our allies and our military leaders agree.  “But Trump” is not an excuse for this. He was roundly criticized for all things Afghan withdrawal related and he may have handled it just as badly had he won the election. No doubt he wanted us out of there ASAP. I’m criticizing Biden for HOW HE actually handled it. Incompetence knows no party line. It’s just incompetence.

Edited. I know many look at things along party lines in the US but IMO many things have nothing to do with party but with right and wrong.
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Mariola

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« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2021, 08:40:01 PM »

But the main issue as I understand has to do with the very unexpected speed. It makes no sense that it is coincidence that all of the Afghan fighters decided with spontaneity  not to fight. Also it makes no sense that the Taliban was not already making agreements (or threats) behind the scene in recent times.  The intelligence was not good.

Nobody comes out of this looking very good.
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Future Crayon

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« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2021, 08:59:20 PM »

The Afghan Army did fight for their country and at least 60,000 of them died in the process. Many troops hadn't been paid for 6 or 9 months. Many weren't receiving appropriate rations of food. Many brave soldiers still tried to hold their positions even as their senior officers fled or surrendered.

I don't think it's fair to suggest the Afghans lacked the will to fight.

They lacked resources, support and morale, but many many did fight
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Cool your jets, everyone
Aubiette

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« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2021, 09:05:24 PM »

[Quote ] Absolutely. People want to cast blame to score political points for their side but this is a result of years of bad US-led policy decisions on both sides. This never should’ve been a 20 year war and we should never be in the business is nation building - especially since we’re quite bad at it. My brother worked in national security in DC for a decade and his take is that we never really understood Afghanistan in the end. It’s just a shame that the Afghan people have to pay the price.
[/quote]

I agree with this. Bad policy decisions on all sides. We never should have been there for 20 years. If nothing else we should have left after we got OBL. I voted for Bush Jr and was furious when we went to Iraq. You can’t fix these places. This was always going to end badly for Afghanistan. I just don’t believe it had to end this badly and especially not for people we should have gotten out and our allies. As someone else said we are arrogant and as a British politician said (loosely remembered) we say we’re going to work with you but in the end we tell you what to do.
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Mariola

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« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2021, 09:06:06 PM »

The Afghan Army did fight for their country and at least 60,000 of them died in the process. Many troops hadn't been paid for 6 or 9 months. Many weren't receiving appropriate rations of food. Many brave soldiers still tried to hold their positions even as their senior officers fled or surrendered.

I don't think it's fair to suggest the Afghans lacked the will to fight.

They lacked resources, support and morale, but many many did fight

I am talking about this week only. I do not suggest they did not fight, or even that they lack the will this week. I am saying only that it was not foreseen - and maybe it should have been foreseen - that they had been instructed not to or been frightened not to.
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« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2021, 09:31:00 PM »

Ashraf Ghani took $230 million with him, according to reports.
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anastasia beaverhausen

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« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2021, 09:40:57 PM »

Yes we will have to agree to disagree. I am speaking of how this was handled in this moment.  Itís a clusterF of epic proportions. It seems our allies and our military leaders agree.  ďBut TrumpĒ is not an excuse for this. He was roundly criticized for all things Afghan withdrawal related and he may have handled it just as badly had he won the election. No doubt he wanted us out of there ASAP. Iím criticizing Biden for HOW HE actually handled it. Incompetence knows no party line. Itís just incompetence.

Edited. I know many look at things along party lines in the US but IMO many things have nothing to do with party but with right and wrong.

Neither is ďbut BidenĒ. 

And yes I think it would have been much worse if Trump had handled the withdrawal that he negotiated.
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Chandrasekhi

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« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2021, 09:46:30 PM »

Ashraf Ghani took $230 million with him, according to reports.


And more left on the tarmac apparently. Not that it matters to the Taliban. The US is in debt and the Taliban is wealthy with income from:
- Mining activities of minerals including  gold (significant rare earth metal reserves)
- Opium trade
- Donations from sympathetic states and individuals
...



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