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Author Topic: The Schacks children lose their princely titles  (Read 112459 times)
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VanillaMoomin

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« Reply #825 on: January 03, 2023, 04:40:07 AM »

Out of interest do all of Anne Marie and Benedikte's grandchildren have titles? does this mean Joachim's children will be the only ones of their generation / cousins not to?

They sort of have titles? Anne Marie’s lot have Greek titles, which don’t really exist as Greece got rid of its monarchy. Benedikte’s lot have German titles, which, again, don’t really exist. Joachim’s kids might only be counts and countess, but their titles are at least real. So I’d say they are doing better than AM and B’s supposedly princely descendants.
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« Reply #826 on: January 03, 2023, 05:01:23 AM »

I understand their frustrations and hurt, I really do, but majority of people in the world are struggling right now and this seems like such a superfluous thing for them to argue about.

Perhaps Zara could brief them on how to be a member of the royal family, happy and with a wonderful life - without a title…

I think if QE2had stripped Eugenie and Beatrice of their titles, the analogy would be more apt to the Shacks.  Can you imagine that? I cannot.
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« Reply #827 on: January 03, 2023, 05:18:14 AM »

Out of interest do all of Anne Marie and Benedikte's grandchildren have titles? does this mean Joachim's children will be the only ones of their generation / cousins not to?

Wikipedia has them down as Prince/princess - and one countess by marriage?
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Princess MS

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« Reply #828 on: January 03, 2023, 05:23:40 AM »

Out of interest do all of Anne Marie and Benedikte's grandchildren have titles? does this mean Joachim's children will be the only ones of their generation / cousins not to?

The Greek and German family call themselves Prince and Princesses but they are not recognised as such in those countries so it is faux
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Maria
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« Reply #829 on: January 03, 2023, 07:29:09 AM »

I understand their frustrations and hurt, I really do, but majority of people in the world are struggling right now and this seems like such a superfluous thing for them to argue about.

Perhaps Zara could brief them on how to be a member of the royal family, happy and with a wonderful life - without a title…

I think if QE2had stripped Eugenie and Beatrice of their titles, the analogy would be more apt to the Shacks.  Can you imagine that? I cannot.

It’s funny because I think quite a few here who think this isn’t or shouldn’t be a problem would be outraged should Charles remove the York titles..
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Princess MS

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« Reply #830 on: January 03, 2023, 07:45:50 AM »

I understand their frustrations and hurt, I really do, but majority of people in the world are struggling right now and this seems like such a superfluous thing for them to argue about.

Perhaps Zara could brief them on how to be a member of the royal family, happy and with a wonderful life - without a title…

I think if QE2had stripped Eugenie and Beatrice of their titles, the analogy would be more apt to the Shacks.  Can you imagine that? I cannot.

It’s funny because I think quite a few here who think this isn’t or shouldn’t be a problem would be outraged should Charles remove the York titles..

The whole "title thing" needs a revisit. If they were going to lose them at 25 or on marriage then it should have been left alone but then you would have the older sons without them but the younger children with them for another 10+ years. Far better for them never to be Prince/Princess in the first place. I suspect the children of Vince won't be and as the daughters are not first in line then they won't be able to pass anything down. I wonder what would have happened if AM and Bene did not marry a King or Prince (although the Germans don't recognise it) - would somehow an "arrangment" be made ? Pavlos was born CP before the Greeks dumped the monarchy. It should have stopped there - the other children should not have got a title which is not recognised and certainly no grandchildren.
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leatherface

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« Reply #831 on: January 03, 2023, 08:53:18 AM »

I understand their frustrations and hurt, I really do, but majority of people in the world are struggling right now and this seems like such a superfluous thing for them to argue about.

Perhaps Zara could brief them on how to be a member of the royal family, happy and with a wonderful life - without a title…

I think if QE2had stripped Eugenie and Beatrice of their titles, the analogy would be more apt to the Shacks.  Can you imagine that? I cannot.

It’s funny because I think quite a few here who think this isn’t or shouldn’t be a problem would be outraged should Charles remove the York titles..

The whole "title thing" needs a revisit. If they were going to lose them at 25 or on marriage then it should have been left alone but then you would have the older sons without them but the younger children with them for another 10+ years. Far better for them never to be Prince/Princess in the first place. I suspect the children of Vince won't be and as the daughters are not first in line then they won't be able to pass anything down. I wonder what would have happened if AM and Bene did not marry a King or Prince (although the Germans don't recognise it) - would somehow an "arrangment" be made ? Pavlos was born CP before the Greeks dumped the monarchy. It should have stopped there - the other children should not have got a title which is not recognised and certainly no grandchildren.


This was already done before, Ingolf and Christian became counts of Rosenborg upon marriage but their sister Elisabeth remained HH Princess of Denmark.

That the Schack kids lose their titles upon marriage gives them a choice, such a choice may be deemed unfair by some, but their agency was not infringed. Their decisions will show what is important to them.
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Miss Marple

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« Reply #832 on: January 03, 2023, 12:01:08 PM »

I think the attitude towards royal people has changed, too.

Once Daisy is gone, Denmark will have a (judging from what we have seen so far) a very below average king with an extremely poor work ethic - just to be compared to MM and at least she is having health issues and is only the married in consort.

That the press is not asking questions now does not mean that they are not asking questions in future. Most royals live in a world of their own - they importance comes from the sequence of birth, not from personal achievement. Some of them manage to do such a good job that you won't question them (e.g. the Belgians). Others will be questioned and Frodo will be one of them - surely. Otherwise something is not right with the republican press.

But it won't be only Frodo - people will question the system and the cost. Monarchy is no longer magical, it is also a simple cost/use bill. With the social media practically each member of  royal family (inner circle) can pose a thread because they could be selling out. So far we have seen problems with:

a) Cristina (Spain) - had no clue about life style and no moral problems with fraud (dad's girl 100%)
b) Froilan (Spain) - seems to be a rather reckless young aristocrat, full entitled, not sure what to do with the privilege
c) MT (Lux) - no explaination needed - problem that she is wife of Henri - nobody tries to do anything
d) ML (Norway) - basically living in a phantasy world and promoting it
    one of the daughters: started influencer career
e) MM (Norway) - simply not a good consort - but with sickness and "sickness" shielded from criticism
f) Max (Netherland) - lost touch with realizy, but same problem as MT
g) the two younger As (Netherland) - totally entitled girls, not even able to pose for two minutes for a serious picture
h) Eloise - Influencer career - does not look great, very entitled and superficial
[...]

I think you need to limit the royal families to a core that they are not being held responsible for their relatives. But Marge was very clumsy.


 
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Princess MS

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« Reply #833 on: January 03, 2023, 01:10:42 PM »

I think the attitude towards royal people has changed, too.

Once Daisy is gone, Denmark will have a (judging from what we have seen so far) a very below average king with an extremely poor work ethic - just to be compared to MM and at least she is having health issues and is only the married in consort.

That the press is not asking questions now does not mean that they are not asking questions in future. Most royals live in a world of their own - they importance comes from the sequence of birth, not from personal achievement. Some of them manage to do such a good job that you won't question them (e.g. the Belgians). Others will be questioned and Frodo will be one of them - surely. Otherwise something is not right with the republican press.

But it won't be only Frodo - people will question the system and the cost. Monarchy is no longer magical, it is also a simple cost/use bill. With the social media practically each member of  royal family (inner circle) can pose a thread because they could be selling out. So far we have seen problems with:

a) Cristina (Spain) - had no clue about life style and no moral problems with fraud (dad's girl 100%)
b) Froilan (Spain) - seems to be a rather reckless young aristocrat, full entitled, not sure what to do with the privilege
c) MT (Lux) - no explaination needed - problem that she is wife of Henri - nobody tries to do anything
d) ML (Norway) - basically living in a phantasy world and promoting it
    one of the daughters: started influencer career
e) MM (Norway) - simply not a good consort - but with sickness and "sickness" shielded from criticism
f) Max (Netherland) - lost touch with realizy, but same problem as MT
g) the two younger As (Netherland) - totally entitled girls, not even able to pose for two minutes for a serious picture
h) Eloise - Influencer career - does not look great, very entitled and superficial
[...]

I think you need to limit the royal families to a core that they are not being held responsible for their relatives. But Marge was very clumsy.


 

You just have to look at the parents.... Max is on a par to Rania.... totally absorbed in the mirror but not seeing what they are. MT even worse. The Danes are something else... at the point I’d say Fred being invisible might be a good idea.... his mother is another MT .... all about her as always
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« Reply #834 on: January 03, 2023, 05:07:25 PM »

I think the attitude towards royal people has changed, too.

Once Daisy is gone, Denmark will have a (judging from what we have seen so far) a very below average king with an extremely poor work ethic - just to be compared to MM and at least she is having health issues and is only the married in consort.

That the press is not asking questions now does not mean that they are not asking questions in future. Most royals live in a world of their own - they importance comes from the sequence of birth, not from personal achievement. Some of them manage to do such a good job that you won't question them (e.g. the Belgians). Others will be questioned and Frodo will be one of them - surely. Otherwise something is not right with the republican press.

But it won't be only Frodo - people will question the system and the cost. Monarchy is no longer magical, it is also a simple cost/use bill. With the social media practically each member of  royal family (inner circle) can pose a thread because they could be selling out. So far we have seen problems with:

a) Cristina (Spain) - had no clue about life style and no moral problems with fraud (dad's girl 100%)
b) Froilan (Spain) - seems to be a rather reckless young aristocrat, full entitled, not sure what to do with the privilege
c) MT (Lux) - no explaination needed - problem that she is wife of Henri - nobody tries to do anything
d) ML (Norway) - basically living in a phantasy world and promoting it
    one of the daughters: started influencer career
e) MM (Norway) - simply not a good consort - but with sickness and "sickness" shielded from criticism
f) Max (Netherland) - lost touch with realizy, but same problem as MT
g) the two younger As (Netherland) - totally entitled girls, not even able to pose for two minutes for a serious picture
h) Eloise - Influencer career - does not look great, very entitled and superficial
[...]

I think you need to limit the royal families to a core that they are not being held responsible for their relatives. But Marge was very clumsy.


 

A very valid assessment of the persons. A monarchy - is it about the person temporarily filling in a position or about a system? Could we make a similar assessment for people elected to positions to represent their country to see if that system fares better than this one? Cheaper or more expensive? More secure in the long run or more liable?
In my opinion, rarely a person is fully up to the expectations for the task. For a monarch is even more difficult as they are not going to be released at any time, abdication aside. In the few examples that come to my mind, statistically monarchy comes very well: for an Elizabeth II we have a Carl Gustaf, for a Philippe we have an Albert, for an Olaf we have a Juan Carlos, for a Felipe we have a WA. Do presidents fare better in the long run?
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ralf103

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« Reply #835 on: January 03, 2023, 05:43:13 PM »

I think it all seems a bit too personal, especially after making Mary be able to be regent when she ir Fred are away (can’t remember the danish word sorry!) and after rumours of making J&M move to France. A lot of the ill feeling comes IMO from the circumstances around it rather than the act itself.

TBH it would have helped if they’d said at the same time that Vincent Isabella and Josephine’s kids would be titles Count/Countess as well. While purely in the future it would have helped  it feel less personal.
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Mariola

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« Reply #836 on: January 03, 2023, 06:24:32 PM »

I think it all seems a bit too personal, especially after making Mary be able to be regent when she ir Fred are away (can’t remember the danish word sorry!) and after rumours of making J&M move to France. A lot of the ill feeling comes IMO from the circumstances around it rather than the act itself.

TBH it would have helped if they’d said at the same time that Vincent Isabella and Josephine’s kids would be titles Count/Countess as well. While purely in the future it would have helped  it feel less personal.

It seems to me that the move to France was maybe because there is nowhere enough 'work' in Denmark to justify a job for Joachim or his wife. At least in France he has a job title and a role, and they made one for Marie also. I cannot see a 'forced' move or an 'exile'. Surely it gives some self-respect that they are properly occupied, and it is a good example for their children. I hope that they will make the most of their time in the US and not complain again.

It will be interesting to know what happened between the announcement of title removal at age 25 and the announcement that it would happen immediately. What happened in between was Joachim's counter-proposal?. I wonder if it angered his mother so much that she 'pulled the plug'. Perhaps an ultimatum - keep the titles or we strike, and she said 'strike away'?
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« Reply #837 on: January 03, 2023, 06:39:28 PM »

So are we now if the frankly odd situation where Marie-Olympia and her siblings can call themselves Prince and Princesses of Denmark, but Nicolai and Felix cannot?

Actually, they could take a leaf out of all the pretenders’ book and just continue to style themselves Prince and Princess!
Or Jokke and Marie could make a powerful statement and relinquish their titles…

I have the impression that status and titles are very important to both so they will not relinquish anything.

Or maybe they feel that they haven't done anything to warrant them or their children either being stripped of their titles or relinquishing those titles.

It is not shallow to value a title you were born with and have not disgraced.

The self-esteem of the children should not be based on whether they can call themselves prince or princess.

They still have titles. A 10-year-old girl can call herself a countess. 


Just because the Schack kids have replacement titles doesn't mean they have to be happy about it. They are not even counts of Rosenborg, they have a fake French title. Not only were they demoted, they were also insulted by being given a fictitious title, which also serves as their last name, that has no links to any part of their family because Henrik's family was never aristocratic, they were landed gentry.

A similar example would be a woman getting divorced and being told that she has to revert back to Miss Maiden Name instead of being Ms First Name and Ex's Last Name even though she wants to have the same last name as her children. For example Alex, after the divorce became HH Princess of Denmark and when she married the gigolo became Countess of Frederiksborg.

With this history, it seems disingenuous of Marge to treat Alex with a velvet glove but when it comes to her grandchildren, her own blood, act with an iron fist.


Couldn't agree with you more, leatherface  Star

Especially, when taking away their last name is now only a fictitious name, not even a Danish one, and therefore removing a visible connection to Denmark.



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leatherface

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« Reply #838 on: January 03, 2023, 07:03:49 PM »

I think it all seems a bit too personal, especially after making Mary be able to be regent when she ir Fred are away (can’t remember the danish word sorry!) and after rumours of making J&M move to France. A lot of the ill feeling comes IMO from the circumstances around it rather than the act itself.

TBH it would have helped if they’d said at the same time that Vincent Isabella and Josephine’s kids would be titles Count/Countess as well. While purely in the future it would have helped  it feel less personal.

It seems to me that the move to France was maybe because there is nowhere enough 'work' in Denmark to justify a job for Joachim or his wife. At least in France he has a job title and a role, and they made one for Marie also. I cannot see a 'forced' move or an 'exile'. Surely it gives some self-respect that they are properly occupied, and it is a good example for their children. I hope that they will make the most of their time in the US and not complain again.

It will be interesting to know what happened between the announcement of title removal at age 25 and the announcement that it would happen immediately. What happened in between was Joachim's counter-proposal?. I wonder if it angered his mother so much that she 'pulled the plug'. Perhaps an ultimatum - keep the titles or we strike, and she said 'strike away'?


It is forced if you had your own plans for your life and were told in no uncertain terms that a job in another country that never crossed your mind was set up for you and you will keep your appenage even though it only applies to you doing work in Denmark for the Monarchy.

Your family were looking forward to going back to Denmark where your older children live and your entire family has built their lives. Then when you are strong-armed into said job, you are then publicly accused by the press of abandoning your country for a cushy embassy job that was only created because you are the son of the Monarch and greedily keeping the appenage that should only be paid for work in Denmark and on behalf of the monarchy.

You then take those slings and arrows while the royal court does nothing to rectify this misconception and leaves you to swing. And that doesn't even take into account the possible resentment of the embassy staff and other officers who were never considered for that job which they would jump at.

This is a text book case of golden handcuffs. If there wasn't enough work for Joachim and Marie in Denmark (doubtful with the CP being the sloth he is) then Marge should have cut the Schacks loose but that would require her to acknowledge their agency and give up control over them.
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« Reply #839 on: January 03, 2023, 07:32:39 PM »

I think it all seems a bit too personal, especially after making Mary be able to be regent when she ir Fred are away (can’t remember the danish word sorry!) and after rumours of making J&M move to France. A lot of the ill feeling comes IMO from the circumstances around it rather than the act itself.

TBH it would have helped if they’d said at the same time that Vincent Isabella and Josephine’s kids would be titles Count/Countess as well. While purely in the future it would have helped  it feel less personal.

It seems to me that the move to France was maybe because there is nowhere enough 'work' in Denmark to justify a job for Joachim or his wife. At least in France he has a job title and a role, and they made one for Marie also. I cannot see a 'forced' move or an 'exile'. Surely it gives some self-respect that they are properly occupied, and it is a good example for their children. I hope that they will make the most of their time in the US and not complain again.

It will be interesting to know what happened between the announcement of title removal at age 25 and the announcement that it would happen immediately. What happened in between was Joachim's counter-proposal?. I wonder if it angered his mother so much that she 'pulled the plug'. Perhaps an ultimatum - keep the titles or we strike, and she said 'strike away'?


The family used to have PH, Joachim and Alexandra who was very active and worked as a crown princess, there was enough to do back then, why suddenly there is not enough to do now ? Just because Freddies showed no interest in anything else other than sports (unfortunately Denmark is not a big sporting country and not enough sports related events for him to attend), it doesn't mean there is nothing to do in Denmark in general. Joachim and Marie are spares, they were never expected to be as active as a crown prince couple, but they had enough to do for their secondary role before they were 'exiled' to France.
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