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Author Topic: The DRF and a nazi connection.  (Read 5749 times)
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Maria
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2008, 09:51:55 PM »

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I honestly don't think that the common Dane would have known much about the concentration camps.

That is probably true but we are talking about the DRF here who would have had access to much more information than the average Dane.

They might have - I honestly do not know very much about it. The Queen was a German - I don't know how she felt about the Nazis. I know that at some point Prince Knud and his wife was put in house arrest and there was shot at the castle they were in. I don't know how much this period has been researched here. No doubt people "higher up" knew that the situation for Jews were critical in Germany but as for Denmark it has never been my impression that many actually realised what "the solution for the Jew problem" was. In Denmark it was much more about communism and the fear of the Soviets than it was about Jews.
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« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2020, 08:14:26 PM »

King Christian X, the Danish government and Danish Society during the Holocaust

https://factualfacts.com/...acts-about-the-holocaust/
99% of Danish Jews managed to survive the Holocaust. When Hitler ordered the deportation of Jews in Denmark, the Danish resistance together with the assistance of Danish citizens, then organised a massive evacuation of their Jewish population, to neutral Sweden, thus saving them from the Holocaust.

https://www.newstatesman....h-about-denmark-holocaust

"The surprising truth about Denmark in the Holocaust "

"It is a story that reinforces an old truth: solidarity and decency depend on a dense tissue of connection among people, on long-formed habits of the heart, on resilient cultures of common citizenship, and on leaders who marshal these virtues by their example. In Denmark, this dense tissue bound human beings together and indirect rule made it impossible for the Germans to rip it apart. Elsewhere in Europe, by contrast, it was destroyed in stages, first by ghettoising and isolating the Jewish people and then by insulating bystanders from the full horror of Nazi intentions. Once Jews had been stripped of citizenship, property, rights, and social existence—once they could appeal only to the common humanity of persecutors and bystanders alike – it was too late.


A book by Bo Lidegaard, seeks to explain how a small country tried to fight back.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This magnificent book states its central argument in its title. Danish Jews survived Hitler’s rule in World War II, when other European Jews did not, because Danes regarded their Jewish neighbors as countrymen. There was no “us” and “them”; there was just us..
......
The nation in question was imagined in civic terms rather than ethnic terms. What mattered was a shared commitment to democracy and law, not a common race or religion. We can see this in the fact that Danish citizens did not defend several hundred communists who were interned and deported by the Danish government for denouncing the Danish monarchy and supporting the Hitler-Stalin pact. The Danes did nothing to defend their own communists, but they did stand up for the Jews.

The Danish response to the Nazis illuminates a crucial fact about the Holocaust: the Germans did not always force the issue of extermination where they faced determined resistance from occupied populations. In Bulgaria, as Tzvetan Todorov has shown in his aptly titled book The Fragility of Goodness, the Jews were saved because the king of Bulgaria, the Orthodox Church, and a few key Bulgarian politicians refused to assist the German occupiers. Why did a similar civic sense of solidarity not take root in other countries? In Holland, why did 80 percent of Dutch Jews perish? And what about France: why did liberty, equality, and fraternity not apply to the citizens driven from their homes by French police and sent to deportation and death? These questions become harder to answer in the light of the Danish and Bulgarian counterexamples. One possible explanation is that the German occupation’s presence in Denmark was lighter than in either France or Holland. The Danes, like the Bulgarians, kept their king and maintained their own government throughout the occupation. Self-government gave them a capacity to defend Jews that was never possible in the occupied zones of France or Holland. wn communists, but they did stand up for the Jews.

.....
Both the Danish king and the Danish government decided that their best hope of maintaining Denmark’s sovereignty lay in cooperating but not collaborating with the German occupiers.
.......
Why did the Danes behave so differently from most other societies and populations in occupied Europe? For a start, they were the only nation where escape to a safe neutral country lay across a narrow strait of water. Moreover, they were not subject to exterminatory pressure themselves. They were not directly occupied, and their leadership structures from the monarch down to the local mayors were not ripped apart. The newspapers in Copenhagen were free enough to report the deportations and thus to assist any Jews still not in the know to flee. The relatively free circulation of information also made it impossible for non-Jewish Danes to claim, as so many Germans did, that “of this we had no knowledge.”
[/b]
Most of all, Denmark was a small, homogeneous society, with a stable democracy, a monarchy that commanded respect, and a shared national hostility to the Germans. Denmark offers some confirmation of Rousseau’s observation that virtue is most easily fostered in small republics.
.......................
Countrymen is a story about a little country that did the right thing for complicated reasons, and got away with it for equally complicated reasons"


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« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2020, 09:02:14 PM »

In comparison:

According to some sources:

Some 75% of the Dutch-Jewish population died in the Holocaust, an unusually high percentage compared with the other occupied countries in western Europe.

Factors that influenced the greater number of people who died included that the governmental apparatus was relatively intact after the royal family and government fled to London. The Netherlands was not under a military regime. It was the most densely inhabited country of Western Europe, making it difficult for the relatively large number of Jews to go into hiding. Most Jews in Amsterdam were poor, which limited their options for flight or hiding. The country did not have much open space or woods for people to flee to. Also, the civil administration had detailed records that indicated the numbers of Jews, and where they lived. The average citizen of the Netherlands was unaware of the operation of "death camps", such as Mauthausen for the majority of the occupation. All Dutch citizens were obligated to "register" and undertake work in Germany.[16] When the Dutch recognised German persecution of the Jews in the Netherlands, they conducted the first act of mass civil disobedience in occupied Europe during WWII: the Februaristaking (“February strike”), in order to show their support for Jewish citizens.

One theory is that the Germans made use of the administrative organizations and Dutch police:

"In their preparations for the extermination of the Jews living in The Netherlands, the Germans could count on the assistance of the greater part of the Dutch administrative infrastructure. The occupiers had to employ only a relatively limited number of their own personnel; Dutch policemen rounded up the families to be sent to their deaths in Eastern Europe. Trains of the Dutch railways staffed by Dutch employees transported the Jews to camps in the Netherlands which were transit points to Auschwitz, Sobibor, and other death camps." With respect to Dutch collaboration, Eichmann is quoted as saying "The transports run so smoothly that it is a pleasure to see."

Source: Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/...e_Jews_in_the_Netherlands

Only recently at the national Holocaust remembrance in NL the current Prime Minister Mark Rutte apologized for the role of the government (and government related organisations) in the Holocaust with regard to the Dutch Jews.

https://www.timesofisrael...ews-during-the-holocaust/
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« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2020, 09:37:34 PM »

In comparison:

According to some sources:

Some 75% of the Dutch-Jewish population died in the Holocaust, an unusually high percentage compared with the other occupied countries in western Europe.

Factors that influenced the greater number of people who died included that the governmental apparatus was relatively intact after the royal family and government fled to London.
The Netherlands was not under a military regime. It was the most densely inhabited country of Western Europe, making it difficult for the relatively large number of Jews to go into hiding. Most Jews in Amsterdam were poor, which limited their options for flight or hiding. The country did not have much open space or woods for people to flee to. Also, the civil administration had detailed records that indicated the numbers of Jews, and where they lived. The average citizen of the Netherlands was unaware of the operation of "death camps", such as Mauthausen for the majority of the occupation. All Dutch citizens were obligated to "register" and undertake work in Germany.[16] When the Dutch recognised German persecution of the Jews in the Netherlands, they conducted the first act of mass civil disobedience in occupied Europe during WWII: the Februaristaking (“February strike”), in order to show their support for Jewish citizens.

One theory is that the Germans made use of the administrative organizations and Dutch police:

"In their preparations for the extermination of the Jews living in The Netherlands, the Germans could count on the assistance of the greater part of the Dutch administrative infrastructure. The occupiers had to employ only a relatively limited number of their own personnel; Dutch policemen rounded up the families to be sent to their deaths in Eastern Europe. Trains of the Dutch railways staffed by Dutch employees transported the Jews to camps in the Netherlands which were transit points to Auschwitz, Sobibor, and other death camps." With respect to Dutch collaboration, Eichmann is quoted as saying "The transports run so smoothly that it is a pleasure to see."

Source: Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/...e_Jews_in_the_Netherlands

Only recently at the national Holocaust remembrance in NL the current Prime Minister Mark Rutte apologized for the role of the government (and government related organisations) in the Holocaust with regard to the Dutch Jews.

https://www.timesofisrael...ews-during-the-holocaust/
This is exactly what the Danes, the DRF and their parliament did not do until 1943 when the parliament resigned to thwart being used by the Germans to round-up Danish Jews. 

I found this part of the book review absolutely fascinating:

"The Danes knew long before the war that their army could not resist a German invasion. Instead of overtly criticising Hitler, the Social Democratic governments of the 1930s sought to inoculate their populations against the racist ideology next door. It was in those ominous years that the shared identity of all Danes as democratic citizens was drummed into the political culture, just in time to render most Danes deeply resistant to the Nazi claim that there existed a “Jewish problem” in Denmark. Lidegaard’s central insight is that human solidarity in crisis depended on the prior consolidation of a decent politics, on the creation of a shared political imagination. Some Danes did harbor anti-Semitic feelings, but even they understood the Jews to be members of a political community, and so any attack on them was an attack on the Danish nation as such."

Honestly, after reading the entire review and what it revealed about the  statesmanship of King Christian X, I have very little respect left for Daisy. Can you imagine Freddles exhibiting anything close to the statecraft of Christian X? Fortunately for him, it is unlikely to be required.


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« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2020, 09:44:28 PM »

I guess with regard to royal interferance/ role during WWII it is hard "to do the correct thing"

- Queen Wilhelmina and family (Juliana, Bernhard with children) fled abroad. She has been praised for her actions and words when being in exile. But in recent years a bit more negative reports surfaced.
- King Leopold III stayed, but was a.o. accused of collaberation with the Germans. After a kind of referendum he abdicated in favor of his eldest son.
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« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2020, 10:05:02 PM »

I guess with regard to royal interferance/ role during WWII it is hard "to do the correct thing"

- Queen Wilhelmina and family (Juliana, Bernhard with children) fled abroad. She has been praised for her actions and words when being in exile. But in recent years a bit more negative reports surfaced.
- King Leopold III stayed, but was a.o. accused of collaberation with the Germans. After a kind of referendum he abdicated in favor of his eldest son.

In: https://www.warhistoryonl...-reviews-mark-barnes.html
it is stated that Queen Wilhemina wasn't trying to get to Britain but to the unoccupied Dutch province of Zeeland but the British who came to rescue the Royal Family were taking no chances. By all accounts the Dutch fought valiantly but they were unprepared because they thought the Nazi's would respect their neutrality, their weapons were obsolete and they had Nazi sympathizers within their own ranks.



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« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2020, 10:11:12 PM »

I guess with regard to royal interferance/ role during WWII it is hard "to do the correct thing"

- Queen Wilhelmina and family (Juliana, Bernhard with children) fled abroad. She has been praised for her actions and words when being in exile. But in recent years a bit more negative reports surfaced.
- King Leopold III stayed, but was a.o. accused of collaberation with the Germans. After a kind of referendum he abdicated in favor of his eldest son.

In: https://www.warhistoryonl...-reviews-mark-barnes.html
it is stated that Queen Wilhemina wasn't trying to get to Britain but to the unoccupied Dutch province of Zeeland but the British who came to rescue the Royal Family were taking no chances. By all accounts the Dutch fought valiantly but they were unprepared because they thought the Nazi's would respect their neutrality, their weapons were obsolete and they had Nazi sympathizers within their own ranks.





Yes, but I guess they were also unprepared for the warfare of the Germans. In those early May days 1940 several young men lost their lifes, among other a relative of mine (an uncle of my mother). But with the bombing of Rotterdam it was soon over and the Dutch were overrun by the Germans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...rman_bombing_of_Rotterdam

"...The psychological and physical success of the raid, from the German perspective, led the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe (OKL) to threaten to destroy the city of Utrecht if the Dutch Government did not surrender. The Dutch capitulated early the next morning...."
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« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2020, 10:35:57 PM »

I guess with regard to royal interferance/ role during WWII it is hard "to do the correct thing"

- Queen Wilhelmina and family (Juliana, Bernhard with children) fled abroad. She has been praised for her actions and words when being in exile. But in recent years a bit more negative reports surfaced.
- King Leopold III stayed, but was a.o. accused of collaberation with the Germans. After a kind of referendum he abdicated in favor of his eldest son.

In: https://www.warhistoryonl...-reviews-mark-barnes.html
it is stated that Queen Wilhemina wasn't trying to get to Britain but to the unoccupied Dutch province of Zeeland but the British who came to rescue the Royal Family were taking no chances. By all accounts the Dutch fought valiantly but they were unprepared because they thought the Nazi's would respect their neutrality, their weapons were obsolete and they had Nazi sympathizers within their own ranks.


Yes, but I guess they were also unprepared for the warfare of the Germans. In those early May days 1940 several young men lost their lifes, among other a relative of mine (an uncle of my mother). But with the bombing of Rotterdam it was soon over and the Dutch were overrun by the Germans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...rman_bombing_of_Rotterdam

"...The psychological and physical success of the raid, from the German perspective, led the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe (OKL) to threaten to destroy the city of Utrecht if the Dutch Government did not surrender. The Dutch capitulated early the next morning...."

It certainly wasn't for a lack of courage that the Dutch army was overrun. I think the same fate that befell the Brits before Churchill took the helm, befell the Dutch: naivety and the unwillingness/inability to imagine the ambition of the  Nazi's  and the scale of the German war machine.
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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2020, 10:36:57 PM »

I guess with regard to royal interferance/ role during WWII it is hard "to do the correct thing"

- Queen Wilhelmina and family (Juliana, Bernhard with children) fled abroad. She has been praised for her actions and words when being in exile. But in recent years a bit more negative reports surfaced.
- King Leopold III stayed, but was a.o. accused of collaberation with the Germans. After a kind of referendum he abdicated in favor of his eldest son.

In: https://www.warhistoryonl...-reviews-mark-barnes.html
it is stated that Queen Wilhemina wasn't trying to get to Britain but to the unoccupied Dutch province of Zeeland but the British who came to rescue the Royal Family were taking no chances. By all accounts the Dutch fought valiantly but they were unprepared because they thought the Nazi's would respect their neutrality, their weapons were obsolete and they had Nazi sympathizers within their own ranks.


Yes, but I guess they were also unprepared for the warfare of the Germans. In those early May days 1940 several young men lost their lifes, among other a relative of mine (an uncle of my mother). But with the bombing of Rotterdam it was soon over and the Dutch were overrun by the Germans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...rman_bombing_of_Rotterdam

"...The psychological and physical success of the raid, from the German perspective, led the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe (OKL) to threaten to destroy the city of Utrecht if the Dutch Government did not surrender. The Dutch capitulated early the next morning...."

It certainly wasn't for a lack of courage that the Dutch army was overrun. I think the same fate that befell the Brits before Churchill took the helm, befell the Dutch: naivety and the unwillingness/inability to imagine the ambition of the  Nazi's  and the scale of the German war machine.

I agree upon that.
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« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2020, 11:02:22 PM »

I guess with regard to royal interferance/ role during WWII it is hard "to do the correct thing"

- Queen Wilhelmina and family (Juliana, Bernhard with children) fled abroad. She has been praised for her actions and words when being in exile. But in recent years a bit more negative reports surfaced.
- King Leopold III stayed, but was a.o. accused of collaberation with the Germans. After a kind of referendum he abdicated in favor of his eldest son.

In: https://www.warhistoryonl...-reviews-mark-barnes.html
it is stated that Queen Wilhemina wasn't trying to get to Britain but to the unoccupied Dutch province of Zeeland but the British who came to rescue the Royal Family were taking no chances. By all accounts the Dutch fought valiantly but they were unprepared because they thought the Nazi's would respect their neutrality, their weapons were obsolete and they had Nazi sympathizers within their own ranks.


Yes, but I guess they were also unprepared for the warfare of the Germans. In those early May days 1940 several young men lost their lifes, among other a relative of mine (an uncle of my mother). But with the bombing of Rotterdam it was soon over and the Dutch were overrun by the Germans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...rman_bombing_of_Rotterdam

"...The psychological and physical success of the raid, from the German perspective, led the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe (OKL) to threaten to destroy the city of Utrecht if the Dutch Government did not surrender. The Dutch capitulated early the next morning...."

It certainly wasn't for a lack of courage that the Dutch army was overrun. I think the same fate that befell the Brits before Churchill took the helm, befell the Dutch: naivety and the unwillingness/inability to imagine the ambition of the  Nazi's  and the scale of the German war machine.

I agree upon that.
Dutch Courage – How Fierce Resistance During Germany’s Invasion of the Netherlands Cost Hitler Big in the End
https://militaryhistoryno...ers-had-a-lasting-effect/
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« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2020, 11:06:04 PM »

A small error in this report.

Amsterdam is and has been the capital of the Netherlands. The weird fact is that the offical seat of the government and the residence of the Queen/King isn't in Amsterdam, but in The Hague.


A fun fact:

The long lasting Dutch musical 'Soldaat van Oranje' (= Soldier of Orange) (based on the book and corresponding movie) has been shown since its start in the so called 'Theater hangaar' (theater hangar) on the former Airport Valkenburg (near Katwijk en Leiden). This musical is already running in NL for approx. 9 years now.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 11:11:32 PM by Principessa » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2020, 01:31:21 PM »

Here is an interesting link regarding the protection of Denmark's Jewish population:

https://www.yadvashem.org...scue-of-denmark-jews.html

If anyone needs a "lift" right now, an affirmation of human decency (I think we all do) then I recommend reading:  When Courage was Stronger Than Fear, by Peter Hellman. 
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