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Author Topic: Princess Caroline  (Read 254445 times)
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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #150 on: February 15, 2012, 09:30:07 PM »

PeDe, I completely understand your point. But whether Germany has abolished the monarchy or not...E-A is still a Royal Prince, descended from Kings through the Hanoverian line.  He IS a Royal by blood, whether he uses his title or not.

That's what I meant by posting that there is nothing "faux" about his title.  Smiley

Even if he goes to work as an exotic dancer or plumber  Laughing Yikes, nothing will change the fact of his lineage and heredity.

I suspect that is why he uses his title, and I suspect that is why defunct Royals such as the Greeks still use theirs as well.



« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 10:29:35 PM by KittyHeaven » Logged
PeDe
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« Reply #151 on: February 15, 2012, 10:26:36 PM »

PeDe, I completely understand your point. But whether Germany has abolished the monarchy or not...E-A is still a Royal Prince, descended from Kings through the Hanoverian line.  He IS a Royal by blood, whether he uses his title or not.

That's what I meant by posting that there is nothing "faux" about his title.  Smiley

Even if he goes to work as an exotic dancer or plumber  Laughing Yikes, nothing will change the fact of his lineage and heredity.

I suspect that is why he uses his title, and I suspect that is why defunct Royals such as the Greeks still use there's as well.


I totally understand what you are saying KittyHeaven, but as a German, I just see it differently!

....YES, he is of royal lineage
....NO (by law) he was never born a royal prince

EA was born 1954 - - 35 years after the abolition of royalty in Germany, his lineage doesn't trump law.
Out of courtesy to his descent, and officially he is allowed to use a part of his cultural heritage as surname, minus the title.

His father, Ernst August IV, Prince of Hannover (1914–1987), was titled only for 5 years, after that it's the same spiel. But you are right in the fact that it is difficult for deposed nobility to accept their status as just wealthy people with a history of royal linage, not being royal themselves anymore. It's a bitter pill to swollow for them.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 10:38:02 PM by PeDe » Logged

KittyHeaven

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« Reply #152 on: February 15, 2012, 10:38:53 PM »

Okay...bear with me here..because I am confused PeDe.

Let's say I am born with red hair. But my country decides that it is illegal to call people with red hair "redheads."

It's a description that is ABOLISHED. All redheads must now and forevermore use the adjective "auburn" to describe their hair color...because there is no such thing as "redhead" anymore.

This will NOT change the fact that I am a redhead...it's just that the country of my birth prefer that I not describe myself that way....but I am still a person with red hair regardless of which laws are passed prohibiting that description.So it is with E-A and his title of "Prince".

So in that case yes...reality does indeed trump the law.

Forgive me for the silly parallel but this is the way I see it. Germany abolished the monarchy, which was their right, and which is the law as it stands. They don't want Kings/Queens/Princes to rule over them, which is their right.

It CAN NOT change what E-A is, was and will always be...Royal, because his parents were Royal, their parents were Royal etc.  Germany can insist he call himself HERR or Mr...but he is a MR who is also a Prince of the blood by birth.

Sorry for the confusion, I am trying to make a point and to understand yours.
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Lolly

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« Reply #153 on: February 15, 2012, 10:48:20 PM »

Noble titles function as a surname, but they can't be granted.

Under the Weimar Constitution:

Quote
Article 109
All Germans are equal in front of the law.
In principle, men and women have the same rights and obligations.
Legal privileges or disadvantages based on birth or social standing are to be abolished.
Noble titles form part of the name only; noble titles may not be granted any more.
Titles may only be granted, if they indicate an office or occupation; academic degrees are not affected by this regulation.
The state may no more bestow orders and medals.
No German may accept titles or orders from a foreign government.

So he isn't titled per se, but it is part of his name.
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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #154 on: February 15, 2012, 10:57:20 PM »

Lolly...that makes PERFECT sense...thanks so much!  Star
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PeDe
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« Reply #155 on: February 15, 2012, 11:20:00 PM »

Okay...bear with me here..because I am confused PeDe.

Let's say I am born with red hair. But my country decides that it is illegal to call people with red hair "redheads."

It's a description that is ABOLISHED. All redheads must now and forevermore use the adjective "auburn" to describe their hair color...because there is no such thing as "redhead" anymore.

This will NOT change the fact that I am a redhead...it's just that the country of my birth prefer that I not describe myself that way....but I am still a person with red hair regardless of which laws are passed prohibiting that description.So it is with E-A and his title of "Prince".

So in that case yes...reality does indeed trump the law.

Forgive me for the silly parallel but this is the way I see it. Germany abolished the monarchy, which was their right, and which is the law as it stands. They don't want Kings/Queens/Princes to rule over them, which is their right.

It CAN NOT change what E-A is, was and will always be...Royal, because his parents were Royal, their parents were Royal etc.  Germany can insist he call himself HERR or Mr...but he is a MR who is also a Prince of the blood by birth.

Sorry for the confusion, I am trying to make a point and to understand yours.

no, don't be sorry, I think we just see it in a different way.

I could understand your analogy we would talk royalty as something physical that somebody is born with, that is inherent to genetics and not easily removable. For example, if royals were truly born with “blue blood”. Then - just because the law changes, the name for something changes - your blue blood would not be able to be altered. It would stay blue.

But to me royalty is a concept contrived by humans to appoint somebody in a lifelong position or status. Some were born into it, some were elected into it, and some had the 'honour' to have royalty bestowed upon them....thousand/hundreds of years ago.
Royalty is nothing that they carry in their blood and flesh (*by now royalists would have stoned me*) it is an idea that is carried through centuries.

At one point in time group of people, a tribe, citizens decided to elect a leader, a king who has done heroic deeds for all of them, and granted him all the privileges and entitlements that come with this position, not only to him but also to his family.

And the law is formed according to it. The political environment is formed according to that law.

Century’s later the people re-think that law, and change the political direction they go, abolish the status of that leading family, making them equal to everybody else (1919). That status, with all its entitlements and privileges does not exist anymore.

Now, 35 years later, a boy is born. Born under a totally different social and political structure, but out of respect to his ancestry the now political leaders say that he can refer to his lineage, but only in name, not in status.

Hence, the name stays, but the title (e.g. Prince, Duke) goes out the window. And EA shouldn't even refer to himself as such!
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Marie

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« Reply #156 on: February 16, 2012, 12:51:41 AM »

...I see Andrea more in a diplomatic role, like ambassador of france/Monaco somewhere...

I see Andrea in rehab.  The sooner the better.    Crap

Me too !
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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #157 on: February 16, 2012, 04:01:57 AM »

LOL!! Oh God...you folks are only joking about Andrea...I hope??!  Shocked
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BaronessLee

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« Reply #158 on: February 16, 2012, 07:24:58 AM »

Okay...bear with me here..because I am confused PeDe.

Let's say I am born with red hair. But my country decides that it is illegal to call people with red hair "redheads."

It's a description that is ABOLISHED. All redheads must now and forevermore use the adjective "auburn" to describe their hair color...because there is no such thing as "redhead" anymore.

This will NOT change the fact that I am a redhead...it's just that the country of my birth prefer that I not describe myself that way....but I am still a person with red hair regardless of which laws are passed prohibiting that description.So it is with E-A and his title of "Prince".

So in that case yes...reality does indeed trump the law.

Forgive me for the silly parallel but this is the way I see it. Germany abolished the monarchy, which was their right, and which is the law as it stands. They don't want Kings/Queens/Princes to rule over them, which is their right.

It CAN NOT change what E-A is, was and will always be...Royal, because his parents were Royal, their parents were Royal etc.  Germany can insist he call himself HERR or Mr...but he is a MR who is also a Prince of the blood by birth.

Sorry for the confusion, I am trying to make a point and to understand yours.

Analogy works, and you're right IMO.

And in the case of Caroline, what matters is other royals agree. In the world of royalty, those courtesy titles still hold water. Caroline did marry someone with a true title. And such titles do pass to the next generation and so on.
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Tulip of Nonsense

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« Reply #159 on: February 16, 2012, 05:47:51 PM »

What a thought-provoking discussion is taking place here!  Jumping (See what I mean PeDe? You’ve certainly got the knack, hein? In fact, all of you are great!)  Star
I wish I could contribute more to the Monaco-threads myself, especially on debatable pretences, but... maybe in a good time...  Secret
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"I was given a degree by a college of unbeautiful nonsense... And I have kissed a prince in a land where men grind their wheat in the sky..."
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« Reply #160 on: February 17, 2012, 03:52:28 PM »

Could someone please post her latest interview in Germany - translated in English? I heard she was brilliant and her German just flawless.
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PeDe
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« Reply #161 on: February 17, 2012, 06:33:49 PM »

Could someone please post her latest interview in Germany - translated in English? I heard she was brilliant and her German just flawless.

yes, I would like to hear that interview as well, please!
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christina01
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« Reply #162 on: February 18, 2012, 02:05:29 AM »

PeDe, I completely understand your point. But whether Germany has abolished the monarchy or not...E-A is still a Royal Prince, descended from Kings through the Hanoverian line.  He IS a Royal by blood, whether he uses his title or not.

That's what I meant by posting that there is nothing "faux" about his title.  Smiley

Even if he goes to work as an exotic dancer or plumber  Laughing Yikes, nothing will change the fact of his lineage and heredity.

I suspect that is why he uses his title, and I suspect that is why defunct Royals such as the Greeks still use theirs as well.




He isn't a royal prince if the country he belongs to has abolished their royal family. royalty isnt in the genes, its a birthright  Smiley
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KittyHeaven

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« Reply #163 on: February 18, 2012, 06:57:53 AM »

christina01...I guess we will just have to disagree. A country can "abolish" apples and oranges but they would still exist.

And I still believe that a person's identity is both in their genes and their birthright. Charles of England is a prince through his genes, he is heir to the Throne by birthright. If the monarchy is abolished in Britain, the Throne is no longer his birthright. But he is a Prince until the day he dies.[/i

]Same with Ernst-August. The German Throne is no longer his birthright. But the right to call himself a Prince is..because that is what he is by fact of his geneology.

Germany cannot abolish a person's heredity...only the rights and privileges that go with it.
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Flor

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« Reply #164 on: February 21, 2012, 03:59:38 PM »

Princess Caroline in Burkina Faso, February 17, 2012
http://royautes.ek.la/vis...ba-burkina-faso-a40672475
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